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I'm going back to VS2008

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  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    I've been using VS2010 for a few weeks now, and I'm finding it hard to like it. Too many things simply irk or otherwise annoy me with the new IDE:

    • The WPF-based UI is slow and laggy in parts, for example when opening menus for the first time.
    • I can't seem to get it to indent lines when I create new ones, like every version of VS has done until 2010, and it's very annoying to be doing ballroom dancing with my fingers on my keyboard to find the caret reverted to column 1 and having to then manually indent. It gets extremely irritating and a massive hinderance to my productivity.
    • The documentation system, there really is no excuse for this. H3Viewer isn't any help because it takes up to 5 times as long to do something as MSDN2008. Never mind the lack of filtering options.
    • When developing against .NET2.0 the autocomplete window lists options for .NET4.0.
    • And the intellisense window isn't resizable either. I get claustrophic.
    • It's impossible to radically reorganise the toolbars: you can't move a menu item from one sub-menu to another sub-menu, only top-level editing is allowed, and you can't change button icons either. Which means I can't have my preferred menu and toolbar layout I've had since VS2003.
    • I can't get IE8 Script Debugging to work at all, I get cryptic errors about DLLs not being registered and having to re-install VS2010. IE debugging has always "just worked" in VS2008.

    The only benefit I've had with VS2010 is the ability to arbitrarily move document windows about, but this is on my laptop where there isn't any space to drag them to.

     

    Also, as my laptop is the only machine with VS2010 it means I need to maintain separate *.sln and *.proj files for both VS2010 and VS2008.

     

    I'm sticking with 2008.

     

    What's everyone else's experiences?

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    on start up i see a small delay in the UI the first time i load 2010 and after that i do not see a problem with ui speed.

    i do see a few times where the screen needed to redraw and if i re-size the app it snaps up the right update, like opening a code or design window on some occasions it does not show the new edit window.

     

    the help / doc engine yeah that one i *TOTALLY HATE* what they did, to me it was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. IMHO they should just say "For Help open a GOOGLE and search there ...." that's what i think of the new help system.

     

    script debug - i have never really used VS to try and debug any JS so i have no feedback there.

     

    Multi-Targeting I have not seen any issues with .net 2.xx 3.xx and 4.xx i have several apps that are in each version and for me this works fine.

     

    I do not like the following:

    1) lack of support for my Vs 2008 smart device projects.

    2) SQL RS Editing - why not have the ability to edit a RS 2005 report and an RS 2008 report with VS 2010

     

    if they fixed the two missing items I could uninstall VS 2005 and VS 2008 of all the machines i use!

     

     

    so over all for me the new Support for SIlverlight and WPF and the ability to work on 2.0 and 3.5 and 4.0 apps

    plus a lot of other stuff they have done make it a no-brainer to keep 2010

     

    I just put  out a V1.0 of a new app for a customer in WPF and they love how it looks and works, they have already requested a new version with more features.

     

    I see over the next year the start of a shift away from WinForms appps to a mix of WPF and SIlverlight for our core clients.

     

    I am starting to track how many desktops have what version of .net and planning how i can get 4.0 on them w/o a big manpower issue.

    they do not have an AD system if they did i would setup an auto update process.

     

  • User profile image
    ManipUni

    The new XML/XSL debugging in 2010 makes it a very good upgrade for me. Although it has a VERY long way to go it is still one of the best XML/XSL development enviroments on the market (*which just goes to show how horrible that market really is).

  • User profile image
    Ian2

    ManipUni said:

    The new XML/XSL debugging in 2010 makes it a very good upgrade for me. Although it has a VERY long way to go it is still one of the best XML/XSL development enviroments on the market (*which just goes to show how horrible that market really is).

    I'm doing Silverlight and a little XNA development at the moment and use 2010 with Blend almost exclusively.  I still have 2008 installed but have not had any reason to fire it up recently (that might change if I had to update some of my old projects - I still have some stuff in 2.0).  On the whole I have personally found 2010 to be a pretty good upgrade though I will be keeping 2008 aroound for a while, ' just in case' .    First impressions of HELP were not good but I tend to use Google/Bing for help nowadays anyway.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    Impossible for me because I need

    1. Multi-touch support in .NET 4.0
    2. Improved text rendering
    3. WCF Routing/Protocol Bridging services
    4. UML diagramming and additional debugging support
    5. Parallel libraries - my image processing application works much faster on multi-core machines (4 cores = 1/4 of the time in some cases)
    6. Client profile means I dont have to install .NET 2.0, 3.0, .3.5 and 4.0 on new netbooks or laptops

    It would add several months programming were I to regress, but most of the application would have been done in silverlight 4.0 had that been available several months go, so a VS regression is simply not an option.

     

    I tend to rely more on a few good books than the help system, and the VS 2010 training material is pretty good, so the new help is not a deal breaker for me.

     

    If your project does not necessitate an upgrade to visual studio 2010 and you can use VS 2008, then stay with it, its less hassle and cheaper. I have always thought visual studio a bit wasteful in discarding it every 24 months.

  • User profile image
    mstefan

    figuerres said:

    on start up i see a small delay in the UI the first time i load 2010 and after that i do not see a problem with ui speed.

    i do see a few times where the screen needed to redraw and if i re-size the app it snaps up the right update, like opening a code or design window on some occasions it does not show the new edit window.

     

    the help / doc engine yeah that one i *TOTALLY HATE* what they did, to me it was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. IMHO they should just say "For Help open a GOOGLE and search there ...." that's what i think of the new help system.

     

    script debug - i have never really used VS to try and debug any JS so i have no feedback there.

     

    Multi-Targeting I have not seen any issues with .net 2.xx 3.xx and 4.xx i have several apps that are in each version and for me this works fine.

     

    I do not like the following:

    1) lack of support for my Vs 2008 smart device projects.

    2) SQL RS Editing - why not have the ability to edit a RS 2005 report and an RS 2008 report with VS 2010

     

    if they fixed the two missing items I could uninstall VS 2005 and VS 2008 of all the machines i use!

     

     

    so over all for me the new Support for SIlverlight and WPF and the ability to work on 2.0 and 3.5 and 4.0 apps

    plus a lot of other stuff they have done make it a no-brainer to keep 2010

     

    I just put  out a V1.0 of a new app for a customer in WPF and they love how it looks and works, they have already requested a new version with more features.

     

    I see over the next year the start of a shift away from WinForms appps to a mix of WPF and SIlverlight for our core clients.

     

    I am starting to track how many desktops have what version of .net and planning how i can get 4.0 on them w/o a big manpower issue.

    they do not have an AD system if they did i would setup an auto update process.

     

    the help / doc engine yeah that one i *TOTALLY HATE* what they did, to me it was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. IMHO they should just say "For Help open a GOOGLE and search there ...." that's what i think of the new help system.

     

    Truer words have never been written. Whoever thought the new help system was an improvement seriously needs to ... well, to be polite, I will suggest that they re-evaluate what they've done there and make an attempt at providing developers with something that's actually useful. Because what they have is a mess. Full stop.

     

    You know, in thinking about it, help in all of its various forms (for developers and end-users) is one of the things that has actually gotten profoundly worse with newer and newer versions of Windows and other Microsoft products (I'm talking about you, Office). It boggles the mind.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    mstefan said:
    figuerres said:
    *snip*

    the help / doc engine yeah that one i *TOTALLY HATE* what they did, to me it was a HUGE step in the wrong direction. IMHO they should just say "For Help open a GOOGLE and search there ...." that's what i think of the new help system.

     

    Truer words have never been written. Whoever thought the new help system was an improvement seriously needs to ... well, to be polite, I will suggest that they re-evaluate what they've done there and make an attempt at providing developers with something that's actually useful. Because what they have is a mess. Full stop.

     

    You know, in thinking about it, help in all of its various forms (for developers and end-users) is one of the things that has actually gotten profoundly worse with newer and newer versions of Windows and other Microsoft products (I'm talking about you, Office). It boggles the mind.

    I will say this for the help system: their goal was to make F1 more useful and they did achieve that. Now when you press F1, 90% of the time it gets you the right topic (as opposed to close to 0% of the time in VS2008).

     

    It's too bad everything else got worse about it. I've got the help viewer extension installed (I don't like H3Viewer personally) and it's manageable with that, but it's not ideal for sure.

  • User profile image
    Clint

    Are you sure you're on the RTM version?  I did a test WPF project and it never pulled up a .Net 4.0 only item.  I used the System.Threading.Task lib on a 4.0 project, then downgraded it to 3.5.  Soon as I downgraded, it failed to compile.

     

    Parallel

     

    I know beta 2 had some speed issues but on RC and RTM, on any machine I put it on, it works rather nicely.  Do you have any third party extentions installed?

    .For(0, 10, (i) => { Title = i.ToString(); });

  • User profile image
    androidi

    random stats:

     

    2008 cold start 2 sec, warm start <0.5 sec

    2010 cold start 14 sec (after full day of using computer with several hour long idle period, SuperFetch .. more like SuperFail), warm start 4 sec.

     

    I wrote two rants about SuperFetch in 7 here but removed them after figuring you've heard them from me before. Smiley

    If this site weren't purely about random hype vids these days I'd ask for a Going Deep on what went wrong in SuperFetch and what are they going to do about it while it's still somehow relevant. I don't think it's going to be relevant for long after everyone has large SSD but I find it hard to believe majority of Win7 is running on SSD systems so the timing of making it useless in 7 is really annoying.

     

    edit: removed some comments about what RamMap shows after days use. It almost looks as if videos I'm copying with robocopy from net share are being cached (rather than something useful like those apps that take age to load) but not quite certain if I interpret it correctly.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Clint said:

    Are you sure you're on the RTM version?  I did a test WPF project and it never pulled up a .Net 4.0 only item.  I used the System.Threading.Task lib on a 4.0 project, then downgraded it to 3.5.  Soon as I downgraded, it failed to compile.

     

    Parallel

     

    I know beta 2 had some speed issues but on RC and RTM, on any machine I put it on, it works rather nicely.  Do you have any third party extentions installed?

    .For(0, 10, (i) => { Title = i.ToString(); });

    I take back what I said about VS2010 showing .NET4.0-specific entries in a 2.0 project, I was just looking at the intellisense list and noticed some things I never noticed before (namely Array.LongLength).

     

    I've no issues with VS2010 performance in general, but it's just the "little things" in the UI lag that get to me, such as when you open the menus for the first time in a session, subsequent openings are as fast as I'd expect them, but there's still a noticable delay for the first time.

     

    But yeah, so far the main pain is the lack of actual line indenting. I'll gladly pay someone £50 to write an extension that fixes this.

  • User profile image
    stevo_

    Wow, what a surprise...

  • User profile image
    Clint

    androidi said:

    random stats:

     

    2008 cold start 2 sec, warm start <0.5 sec

    2010 cold start 14 sec (after full day of using computer with several hour long idle period, SuperFetch .. more like SuperFail), warm start 4 sec.

     

    I wrote two rants about SuperFetch in 7 here but removed them after figuring you've heard them from me before. Smiley

    If this site weren't purely about random hype vids these days I'd ask for a Going Deep on what went wrong in SuperFetch and what are they going to do about it while it's still somehow relevant. I don't think it's going to be relevant for long after everyone has large SSD but I find it hard to believe majority of Win7 is running on SSD systems so the timing of making it useless in 7 is really annoying.

     

    edit: removed some comments about what RamMap shows after days use. It almost looks as if videos I'm copying with robocopy from net share are being cached (rather than something useful like those apps that take age to load) but not quite certain if I interpret it correctly.

    VS 2010:  With resharper enabled, it is a bit slow (14 seconds on a 10,000rpm raptor), but with it disabled, I'm getting a 2.5 second startup.

    VS2008 start up mimics the same speeds as 2010

     

    ReSharper for me is what causes VS to start up slow, and I'm cool with that since ReSharper lets me code faster.

  • User profile image
    Clint

    W3bbo said:
    Clint said:
    *snip*

    I take back what I said about VS2010 showing .NET4.0-specific entries in a 2.0 project, I was just looking at the intellisense list and noticed some things I never noticed before (namely Array.LongLength).

     

    I've no issues with VS2010 performance in general, but it's just the "little things" in the UI lag that get to me, such as when you open the menus for the first time in a session, subsequent openings are as fast as I'd expect them, but there's still a noticable delay for the first time.

     

    But yeah, so far the main pain is the lack of actual line indenting. I'll gladly pay someone £50 to write an extension that fixes this.

    <quote>

          But yeah, so far the main pain is the lack of actual line indenting.

    </quote>

     

    What do you mean by this?  It acts just like VS 2008.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    androidi said:

    random stats:

     

    2008 cold start 2 sec, warm start <0.5 sec

    2010 cold start 14 sec (after full day of using computer with several hour long idle period, SuperFetch .. more like SuperFail), warm start 4 sec.

     

    I wrote two rants about SuperFetch in 7 here but removed them after figuring you've heard them from me before. Smiley

    If this site weren't purely about random hype vids these days I'd ask for a Going Deep on what went wrong in SuperFetch and what are they going to do about it while it's still somehow relevant. I don't think it's going to be relevant for long after everyone has large SSD but I find it hard to believe majority of Win7 is running on SSD systems so the timing of making it useless in 7 is really annoying.

     

    edit: removed some comments about what RamMap shows after days use. It almost looks as if videos I'm copying with robocopy from net share are being cached (rather than something useful like those apps that take age to load) but not quite certain if I interpret it correctly.

    VS2010 seems a bit slower to start for me, but after that almost everything is faster.

  • User profile image
    Steve411

    I bought VS2010. But I'm not using it.

     

    VS2008 hands down. Sorry dudes.

  • User profile image
    Clint

    Steve411 said:

    I bought VS2010. But I'm not using it.

     

    VS2008 hands down. Sorry dudes.

    I love the new threading toys I get with .NET 4.0 far too much.  And Windows Phone 7, and SL4, ...

     

    What is causing you not to use VS2010?

  • User profile image
    elmer

    I downloaded the free trial of VS2010 Pro, and I *REALLY* wanted to find a good reason to hate it, or at least not enough to justify paying for the upgrade from my VS2008-Pro, but unfortunately... I’m hooked.

     

    I think it must be the blue background and WPF-ness that sold me... as I’m prepared to forgive the longer start-up time, and even the fact that I can’t read the text on many of the dialogs is not enough to turn me off... and the useless help... well... VS help has always been useless, so no change there... I’ve long since learned not to waste my time with it, and just use Google.

     

    As far as indenting is concerned, I don’t see a problem, and I find it’s actually a bit smarter than VS2008 for some things, and at least, seems no dumber.

     

    Damn-it, it’s all shiny and stuff... so now I have to find the money for it... as the Express edition just doesn’t cut it for me.

     

    I suspect this must be how Apple users feel... and I'm ashamed of myself for wanting it... but I do... and I don't *REALLY* need food...

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    elmer said:

    I downloaded the free trial of VS2010 Pro, and I *REALLY* wanted to find a good reason to hate it, or at least not enough to justify paying for the upgrade from my VS2008-Pro, but unfortunately... I’m hooked.

     

    I think it must be the blue background and WPF-ness that sold me... as I’m prepared to forgive the longer start-up time, and even the fact that I can’t read the text on many of the dialogs is not enough to turn me off... and the useless help... well... VS help has always been useless, so no change there... I’ve long since learned not to waste my time with it, and just use Google.

     

    As far as indenting is concerned, I don’t see a problem, and I find it’s actually a bit smarter than VS2008 for some things, and at least, seems no dumber.

     

    Damn-it, it’s all shiny and stuff... so now I have to find the money for it... as the Express edition just doesn’t cut it for me.

     

    I suspect this must be how Apple users feel... and I'm ashamed of myself for wanting it... but I do... and I don't *REALLY* need food...

    I got to agree, this is a video for those that still aesthetically like visual studio 2008

     

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