Coffeehouse Thread

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Java 4-ever, the movie

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  • rhm

    javaplayer said:
    Dan said:
    *snip*

    "how me a customer or top Web site that is using Java applets today."

     

    http://www.tdameritrade.com

    All the tools are written in Java, and displayed as JApplets.

     

    http://www.godaddy.com

    Many of the tools such as the FTP web client is written as Java JApplets.

    https://hostingmanager.secureserver.net/ftpapplet/sftpapplet.jar

    They license the FTP applet from JScape for their users.

     

    http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/Facebook_apps_written_in_Java

    Many apps on FB are written with Java. The uploader is Java.

     

    So there are three, but there are hundreds of thousands of websites that use JavaFX and JApplets on the web. Any website that has advanced tools that can not be displayed with AJAX due to complexity and or real time data display are usually written in Java as Applets rather than Flash which is the popular choice for games, and adverts.

     

    "LOL, if you have a Java application you need to re-write your entire application for iPhone or Windows Phone too. For Andriod, you can use mono to reuse your .NET libraries in a mobile application."

     

    Windows Mobile is not too popular these days. How are you going to write a mono app for Android as an APK? Mono Droid is still alpha. Do you think an enterprise would actually release a commerical app with their name on it to the Android platform with Monodroid?


    "real database in addition to Table Storage"

     

    You can use SQLite in addition to Datastore and Datanucleus. App Engine is just one way you can distribute Java Applications in the cloud. There are actually hundreds of SQL implementations as well with Oracle, PostGRES, and MySQL.

     

    look mate, you might be better off expending your energy to convince the Java dinosaurs to keep the faith - trying to convince .NET developers to switch to Java == massive waste of time. Why don't you try and convince some Python or Ruby developers to switch to Java? That ought to be fun to watch.

     

    Java is the Cobol of the 21st century. Yes, enterprises will have Java code to maintain for decades, but it's long ceased to be a source of interest for anyone.

     

    As for Android, I'll note it doesn't actually run Java on the device. Google didn't want to pay Sun phat money to licence the only bit of Java that they still charge for so they designed their own bytecode and virtual machine to run it.

     

    By the way, Monodroid is in BETA and already benchmarks faster than the new JIT runtime in Android 2.2. I can't say that's a bad thing for Java because as I already said, Android doesn't actually run Java on the device, but it does show that it's hard to get motivated when you're giving something away for free.

     

  • Bass

    javaplayer said:
    Ray7 said:
    *snip*

    Generic Forum Image

     

    Were are my multiplatform .NET install targets Microsoft?

    Why would I dimish my Enterprise deployment base to use Microsoft's inferior product?

     

    Generic Forum Image

     

    Why can't I just use all my libraries and leverage my existing code in Android applications for mobile phones with .NET?

    With Java I just have to change the interface UI and that only takes me a few hours. With .NET I have to rewrite the entire application, and that costs tens of thousands of dollars.

     

    Why would I dimish my Enterprise deployment base to use Microsoft's inferior product?

     

    http://www.cnet.com/8301-19736_1-20008661-251.html

     

    June 24, 2010 12:20 PM PDT

    Carriers activate 160,000 Android phones a day

     

    With Java, all I have to do is extend my main class with JApplet to make it into a web application. No extra code is required. Only to sign the app with a CA cert that is in the Java root certificates, and users can just use the app in the browser. Why is it so much harder to port apps from the desktop to Silverlight?

     

    Why would I dimish my Enterprise deployment base to use Microsoft's inferior product?

     

    I can simply run my existing Java code in Google App Engine for managed load balanced deployments with GWT, and the tools to write and run my code in Eclipse are completely free. The Tomcat stack is totally free to deploy on as many servers as I want with CentOS.

     

    Why would I dimish my Enterprise deployment base to use Microsoft's inferior product?

     

    And Finally:

     

     

     

    Microsoft .NET only supports Windows because other then selling more copies of Visual Studio all their mad monies comes from Windows license sales. You see what I mean? I don't think we will see a cross-platform .NET for a very long time. Although I praise Miguel and company for their efforts with Mono, it is chronically behind. 

  • rhm

    Bass said:
    javaplayer said:
    *snip*

    Hey, my thread attracted a Java advocate. Smiley Welcome to Channel 9!

    It's unlikely to be a new user if you know what I mean..

     

  • Bass

    rhm said:
    javaplayer said:
    *snip*

    look mate, you might be better off expending your energy to convince the Java dinosaurs to keep the faith - trying to convince .NET developers to switch to Java == massive waste of time. Why don't you try and convince some Python or Ruby developers to switch to Java? That ought to be fun to watch.

     

    Java is the Cobol of the 21st century. Yes, enterprises will have Java code to maintain for decades, but it's long ceased to be a source of interest for anyone.

     

    As for Android, I'll note it doesn't actually run Java on the device. Google didn't want to pay Sun phat money to licence the only bit of Java that they still charge for so they designed their own bytecode and virtual machine to run it.

     

    By the way, Monodroid is in BETA and already benchmarks faster than the new JIT runtime in Android 2.2. I can't say that's a bad thing for Java because as I already said, Android doesn't actually run Java on the device, but it does show that it's hard to get motivated when you're giving something away for free.

     

    I actually am programming professionally in Java. My previous job has been with .NET. Java is very much like C#, other then the lack of Properties and Extension methods. I think it might be inspired from C# or the other way around. Smiley

     

    I can't really agree with anything you said really. Java seems to be huge. It has this really big ecosystem too, it seems that while with .NET most everything emanates from 'the source' in Redmond. Java has a huge diverse ecosystem of stuff from Oracle, VMWare, IBM, Google, and Apache. Among many others. Very cool.

  • javaplayer

    rhm said:
    javaplayer said:
    *snip*

    look mate, you might be better off expending your energy to convince the Java dinosaurs to keep the faith - trying to convince .NET developers to switch to Java == massive waste of time. Why don't you try and convince some Python or Ruby developers to switch to Java? That ought to be fun to watch.

     

    Java is the Cobol of the 21st century. Yes, enterprises will have Java code to maintain for decades, but it's long ceased to be a source of interest for anyone.

     

    As for Android, I'll note it doesn't actually run Java on the device. Google didn't want to pay Sun phat money to licence the only bit of Java that they still charge for so they designed their own bytecode and virtual machine to run it.

     

    By the way, Monodroid is in BETA and already benchmarks faster than the new JIT runtime in Android 2.2. I can't say that's a bad thing for Java because as I already said, Android doesn't actually run Java on the device, but it does show that it's hard to get motivated when you're giving something away for free.

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_%28software%29

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Harmony


    Install the Andoid SDK in your Eclipse, then copy/paste or link your non-UI Java code and it will work out of box.

    What you are trying to do is to technically mislead and that's no fun for anybody.

     

    "Java is the Cobol of the 21st century"

     

    http://openjdk.java.net/

     

  • javaplayer

    Bass said:
    javaplayer said:
    *snip*

    Hey, my thread attracted a Java advocate. Smiley Welcome to Channel 9!

    Goodbye. I've met my fair share of Microsoft developers in real life, and I think people should know better than to try to speak to them and expect them to be fair minded.

  • W3bbo

    rhm said:
    Bass said:
    *snip*

    It's unlikely to be a new user if you know what I mean..

     

    I disagree. Beer28 was more of a PHP guy than Java advocate. His posting style isn't the same either.

     

    Most likely it's someone who found this thread via google because Ch9 has such a high pagerank.

  • rhm

    javaplayer said:
    rhm said:
    *snip*

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalvik_%28software%29

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Harmony


    Install the Andoid SDK in your Eclipse, then copy/paste or link your non-UI Java code and it will work out of box.

    What you are trying to do is to technically mislead and that's no fun for anybody.

     

    "Java is the Cobol of the 21st century"

     

    http://openjdk.java.net/

     

    So you do want to claim that Android runs Java? Care to explain why it runs it so slowly? Care to explain why Sun/Oracle engineers aren't working to make it super-fast?

     

    The reason for the first is: Android doesn't run Java, it runs some cobbled-together bytecode that a company Google acquired came up with to avoid paying Java licence fees. Oh, and also to avoid getting into the political bullsh!t that Microsoft did with Sun whereby Sun want all licencees to use the same half-arsed UI toolkits on all platforms to maintain their utopian cross-platform dream. Which is the answer to the second question: Sun/Oracle engineers aren't working to make Java on Android faster because Android doesn't run Java.

     

    Did I mention already that .NET only exists because of Sun's cross-platform politicing? Oh yes, I think I did.

     

    Like I said, you're better off putting your advocacy time into pursauding current Java developers away from checking out alternatives. You aren't going to convince C# developers to use Java unless their job depends on it. Every time I'm forced to look at Java source it makes my sick with it's verbosity (and also the crappy layout style they insist in using, though I guess Java developers could chose to lay out their code so it isn't just one ugly mess).

     

  • javaplayer

    rhm said:
    javaplayer said:
    *snip*

    So you do want to claim that Android runs Java? Care to explain why it runs it so slowly? Care to explain why Sun/Oracle engineers aren't working to make it super-fast?

     

    The reason for the first is: Android doesn't run Java, it runs some cobbled-together bytecode that a company Google acquired came up with to avoid paying Java licence fees. Oh, and also to avoid getting into the political bullsh!t that Microsoft did with Sun whereby Sun want all licencees to use the same half-arsed UI toolkits on all platforms to maintain their utopian cross-platform dream. Which is the answer to the second question: Sun/Oracle engineers aren't working to make Java on Android faster because Android doesn't run Java.

     

    Did I mention already that .NET only exists because of Sun's cross-platform politicing? Oh yes, I think I did.

     

    Like I said, you're better off putting your advocacy time into pursauding current Java developers away from checking out alternatives. You aren't going to convince C# developers to use Java unless their job depends on it. Every time I'm forced to look at Java source it makes my sick with it's verbosity (and also the crappy layout style they insist in using, though I guess Java developers could chose to lay out their code so it isn't just one ugly mess).

     

    "Did I mention already that .NET only exists because of Sun's cross-platform politicing? Oh yes, I think I did."

     

    We all know what happened with the MSJVM, J++, and how Anders H. made the quantum "jump" from WFC to the "brand new" C# language. He's such a genie-ous.

     

    "The reason for the first is: Android doesn't run Java"

     

    Java is the name of both a virtual machine and a programming language. Android does in fact run Java code, which has been compiled for it.

     

    "Like I said, you're better off putting your advocacy"

     

    Unlike the Java-Zone movie, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

    You don't need to be so defensive in my opinion. You remind me of Microsoft devs at a Google convention.

  • Bas

    javaplayer said:
    rhm said:
    *snip*

    "Did I mention already that .NET only exists because of Sun's cross-platform politicing? Oh yes, I think I did."

     

    We all know what happened with the MSJVM, J++, and how Anders H. made the quantum "jump" from WFC to the "brand new" C# language. He's such a genie-ous.

     

    "The reason for the first is: Android doesn't run Java"

     

    Java is the name of both a virtual machine and a programming language. Android does in fact run Java code, which has been compiled for it.

     

    "Like I said, you're better off putting your advocacy"

     

    Unlike the Java-Zone movie, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

    You don't need to be so defensive in my opinion. You remind me of Microsoft devs at a Google convention.

    Welcome back!

  • javaplayer

    Bas said:
    javaplayer said:
    *snip*

    Welcome back!

    Alas, W3bbo is correct. I am new here, but not new to Java or it's rich history.

    I found this thread via Google, and I will be going now.

  • Bass

    javaplayer said:
    Bass said:
    *snip*

    Goodbye. I've met my fair share of Microsoft developers in real life, and I think people should know better than to try to speak to them and expect them to be fair minded.

    No, don't leave! We have cookies! Sad

  • Ray7

    Wow.

     

    That was almost surreal.

     

  • Bas

    Ray7 said:

    Wow.

     

    That was almost surreal.

     

    This calls for a soundtrack.

     

  • stevo_

    Hahahaha... I knew a frustrated java dev would run in here screaming and slinging shít around... 

  • Shining Arcanine

    ManipUni said:

    That was fun.

     

    I am generally tired of idiots painting a black and white picture of technology. Either you use Microsoft OR you use OSS, god forbid you ever mix and match whatever tool works best. I am done playing ideological games with technology - being "Open Source" is not a selling point unless the code base is simple enough for your average programmer to submit patches to.

    Why does it appear that your world set is limited to the union of Microsoft and Open Source Software? There are alternatives to both, such as VMWare, which falls under neither category.

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