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Disappointed about WP7 APIs

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  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    rhm said:
    CKurt said:
    *snip*

    The thing is, Microsoft are telegraphing this as very much a 1.0 release (feels more like a 0.9 to me, but anyway). I'll probably do a few simple Silverlight apps, same as everyone else will - the ease of Silverlight means the marketplace will be flooded with crap from day 1 - but I won't be recommending to anyone to buy a WP7 device.

     

    Unless they are very cheap, there's no reason at all to buy one instead of a newish Andoid phone, or even the >1 year old iPhone 3GS. It's OK saying "what's more important, shipping or improving the APIs?", but I'm pretty sure that's not going to be the marketing message to consumers: Hey, we just wanted to ship a phone, sorry it's all a bit half-baked, but the next version will be great, promise!

    I would be happy just to have the hardware released. It is completely within the realm of possibility that this could be vaporware or even worse, another dead branch on the Microsoft platform tree, along with the Zune HD. I hope this three-screens-and-a-cloud thing isn't a shell game.

     

    Speaking of games, did Steve Ballmer just say that there will Silverlight, Visual 2010 support for Windows Mobile 6.5x?

     

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    Shining Arcanine

    CKurt said:
    Shining Arcanine said:
    *snip*

    Windows Mobile is dead, they started from 0 with the new OS about a 1,5 years ago...

     

    7 is just a name

    That sounds like what Microsoft did with Windows Vista. Do you know why they did it with Windows Mobile?

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    Shining Arcanine said:
    CKurt said:
    *snip*

    That sounds like what Microsoft did with Windows Vista. Do you know why they did it with Windows Mobile?

    So they can wipe out the competition with the successor of WP7, like they did with the successor of Vista?

     

    Sounds like a good strategy to me!

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    JoshRoss said:
    rhm said:
    *snip*

    I would be happy just to have the hardware released. It is completely within the realm of possibility that this could be vaporware or even worse, another dead branch on the Microsoft platform tree, along with the Zune HD. I hope this three-screens-and-a-cloud thing isn't a shell game.

     

    Speaking of games, did Steve Ballmer just say that there will Silverlight, Visual 2010 support for Windows Mobile 6.5x?

     

    -Josh

    There's hardware released right now, if you can get your hands on it. I can't, for the life of me, see how WP7 could be considered vapourware at this point...

     

    And Ballmer was clearly referring to Windows Embedded Compact 7, not Windows Mobile 6.5.x.

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    PaoloM said:
    JoshRoss said:
    *snip*

    There's hardware released right now, if you can get your hands on it. I can't, for the life of me, see how WP7 could be considered vapourware at this point...

     

    And Ballmer was clearly referring to Windows Embedded Compact 7, not Windows Mobile 6.5.x.

    Windows Embedded Compact 7? Do we really need another poorly named platform? The product names should reflect the lineage of the product. It looks like Windows Embedded CE 6.0 R3 supports silverlight, while 6.5 does not. Why do all these myriad of operating systems have to be called Windows? (This is another rhetorical question.)

     

    Anyways, trying to stay on topic... Martin, just be glad you don't have to target a platform that may or may not be depreciated depending on whether or not a crow sits on a donkey.

     

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    Shining Arcanine

    PaoloM said:
    Shining Arcanine said:
    *snip*

    So they can wipe out the competition with the successor of WP7, like they did with the successor of Vista?

     

    Sounds like a good strategy to me!

    Has it? I think that Microsoft is too busy with its own forced obsolescence initiative to worry about its competitors. After all, it has been trying to kill Windows XP for a few years now as part of it and that has not worked very well. In the mean time, Mac OS X has been siphoning significant marketshare from Windows and other UNIX-like operating systems have been growing in popularity too, although they have been growing at a slower rate than Mac OS X.

  • User profile image
    Clint

    rhm said:
    Clint said:
    *snip*

    Whatever the reason, for a platform that's shipping 2+ years after the competition, WP7's APIs are weak sauce. In many ways, both Silverlight and XNA are nice things to program, but you run up against the walls of that garden pretty quickly. Limited access to a lot of things that are taken for granted on iOS; the bizarre and unexplained dichotomy between Silverlight and XNA; no true 3d in Silverlight and no useful UI controls in XNA will make chosing one or the other tricky for some classes of app; no programmable shaders in XNA even though the hardware will support them; and of course no native code, meaning that porting games from iOS is off the agenda for most developers.

    XNA is designed for games.  http://forums.xna.com/forums/p/2396/68400.aspx may have your answer if you want to leverage controls.

     

    What things are you missing that prevent you from creating an application?  Give me a list plus usage examples.

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    JoshRoss said:
    PaoloM said:
    *snip*

    Windows Embedded Compact 7? Do we really need another poorly named platform? The product names should reflect the lineage of the product. It looks like Windows Embedded CE 6.0 R3 supports silverlight, while 6.5 does not. Why do all these myriad of operating systems have to be called Windows? (This is another rhetorical question.)

     

    Anyways, trying to stay on topic... Martin, just be glad you don't have to target a platform that may or may not be depreciated depending on whether or not a crow sits on a donkey.

     

    -Josh

    Why are you confusing Windows Embedded with Windows Mobile?

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    Shining Arcanine said:
    PaoloM said:
    *snip*

    Has it? I think that Microsoft is too busy with its own forced obsolescence initiative to worry about its competitors. After all, it has been trying to kill Windows XP for a few years now as part of it and that has not worked very well. In the mean time, Mac OS X has been siphoning significant marketshare from Windows and other UNIX-like operating systems have been growing in popularity too, although they have been growing at a slower rate than Mac OS X.

    Oh yes. While Apple is busy diverting resources and effort into the iOS devices, Windows 7 is selling seven copies each second.

     

    I'm not saying that Apple is doing badly, au contraire, but Linux is pretty much dead on the desktop and reeling back on the server, and OS/X is dramatically failing to capitalize on the runaway success of the iPhone and iPad.

     

    Vista was a necessary technological step to pave the way for the current Windows generation. And still managed to outsold every other OS on the market.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    PaoloM said:
    Shining Arcanine said:
    *snip*

    Oh yes. While Apple is busy diverting resources and effort into the iOS devices, Windows 7 is selling seven copies each second.

     

    I'm not saying that Apple is doing badly, au contraire, but Linux is pretty much dead on the desktop and reeling back on the server, and OS/X is dramatically failing to capitalize on the runaway success of the iPhone and iPad.

     

    Vista was a necessary technological step to pave the way for the current Windows generation. And still managed to outsold every other OS on the market.

    Good point, though you're assuming that a future iOS devices won't be laptops. I don't think Apple would be daft enough to take MS on from the desktop end where they're strongest. Chances are they'll go for the soft underbelly; the mobile market where MS doesn't seem to know what it's doing.  Gain a foothold there, then start on the desktop when they have thousands of developers and and millions of iPhone users who are already familiar with the iOS.

     

  • User profile image
    gogogadget

    Android started out with a lot broader API then apple, but the platform is only now becoming stable.  I'd rather have fewer features, but have them actually not crash the phone.  You know, do it right or not at all.  They are probably finding that things like the blur effect are not implemented in an efficient enough manner to run on a 1ghz machine.  Keep in mind that as powerfull as these phones are today they are only roughly equivelant to a 10 year old desktop in computing power. 

     

    I am sure that they have had to do a LOT of optimizing to get silverlight to run quickly on a 1ghz processor.  And... I am very glad they did, because developing in silverlight is definitely a lot nicer then developing in the cryptic java based mvc model offered by google, or the objective c that apple is so proud of...

     

    That being said, I know how frusterating it can be when you hit a wall, and lets face it we allways do when developing an application!

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    PaoloM said:
    JoshRoss said:
    *snip*

    Why are you confusing Windows Embedded with Windows Mobile?

    My point exactly! There is no need for any of this confusion. It is marketing gone wild! Which coincidentally, sounds more fun that it actually turns out to be. I would love to have the job of the guy, gal, or committee, that names products. Just give me the $125k or so a year and I will randomly append technobabble together, and prefix it with Windows and suffix it with a bigger integer than some other product that I have recently named. How does Windows Embedded Lite for Small Handheld Kitchen Appliances 6.9.2 sound? If you buy it now, I'll throw in this nut chopper, a $39 value, yours for absolutely free, just pay shipping and handling charges.

     

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    davewill

    JoshRoss said:
    PaoloM said:
    *snip*

    My point exactly! There is no need for any of this confusion. It is marketing gone wild! Which coincidentally, sounds more fun that it actually turns out to be. I would love to have the job of the guy, gal, or committee, that names products. Just give me the $125k or so a year and I will randomly append technobabble together, and prefix it with Windows and suffix it with a bigger integer than some other product that I have recently named. How does Windows Embedded Lite for Small Handheld Kitchen Appliances 6.9.2 sound? If you buy it now, I'll throw in this nut chopper, a $39 value, yours for absolutely free, just pay shipping and handling charges.

     

    -Josh

    I concur on the confusion.

  • User profile image
    Shining Arcanine

    PaoloM said:
    Shining Arcanine said:
    *snip*

    Oh yes. While Apple is busy diverting resources and effort into the iOS devices, Windows 7 is selling seven copies each second.

     

    I'm not saying that Apple is doing badly, au contraire, but Linux is pretty much dead on the desktop and reeling back on the server, and OS/X is dramatically failing to capitalize on the runaway success of the iPhone and iPad.

     

    Vista was a necessary technological step to pave the way for the current Windows generation. And still managed to outsold every other OS on the market.

    Are you sure that those are all Windows 7 sales? Many companies today seem to be buying Windows 7 licenses because it allows them to obtain more copies of Windows XP. Micorsoft is more than happy to advertise such sales as being Windows 7 sales, but in reality, the only thing that was being purchased was Windows XP.

     

    Not to mention, the 7 copies a second is not a constant rate. It is likely represents some average over time, most likely picked in such a way that the figure was as high as possible. I consider it highly improbable that the graph of sales per second with respect to time is  y = [0.65, 0.75).

  • User profile image
    Shining Arcanine

    gogogadget said:

    Android started out with a lot broader API then apple, but the platform is only now becoming stable.  I'd rather have fewer features, but have them actually not crash the phone.  You know, do it right or not at all.  They are probably finding that things like the blur effect are not implemented in an efficient enough manner to run on a 1ghz machine.  Keep in mind that as powerfull as these phones are today they are only roughly equivelant to a 10 year old desktop in computing power. 

     

    I am sure that they have had to do a LOT of optimizing to get silverlight to run quickly on a 1ghz processor.  And... I am very glad they did, because developing in silverlight is definitely a lot nicer then developing in the cryptic java based mvc model offered by google, or the objective c that apple is so proud of...

     

    That being said, I know how frusterating it can be when you hit a wall, and lets face it we allways do when developing an application!

    I believe that google offers two models for GUI programming on Android. They offer a tradditional MVC model, or a XML-based model:

     

    http://developer.android.com/resources/tutorials/hello-world.html

     

    They also support native code development in C/C++:

     

    http://developer.android.com/sdk/ndk/index.html

     

    They even support "codeless development":

     

    http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/07/google-demos-codeless-android-development-tool-for-students.ars

     

    While I am certain that Apple's iPhone requires all code to be written in Objective-C for Apple specific APIs, I am not certain about Windows Mobile 7. Does it require that you do programming with Silverlight, or does it offer other options?

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    1.6

    The number of days between press conferences if MS was to hold one every time they sold 1 million copies of Windows 7.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    BitFlipper said:

    1.6

    The number of days between press conferences if MS was to hold one every time they sold 1 million copies of Windows 7.

    It isn't a fair to compare sales of a physical device that people buy because it's desireable to sales of software pre-loaded on computers that people buy without really having much say in the matter.

     

    I'd much prefer to see the results of a neutral un-biased customer satisfaction survey instead.

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    W3bbo said:
    BitFlipper said:
    *snip*

    It isn't a fair to compare sales of a physical device that people buy because it's desireable to sales of software pre-loaded on computers that people buy without really having much say in the matter.

     

    I'd much prefer to see the results of a neutral un-biased customer satisfaction survey instead.

    So these same people could not choose a Mac when they decided to buy a computer?

     

    Besides, my point is just to show how ridiculous it is that Apple holds a press conference every time they sell 1 million of a product.

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