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Disappointed about WP7 APIs

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  • User profile image
    Cream​Filling512

    Minh said:
    rhm said:
    *snip*

    Ultimately, MS will only be successful if people buys their V2 phones. I think WP7 is charting the path of the Xbox. Losing big $$$ on the V1 product and kick a$$ in the V2. And I think MS is betting big time on integrating the phones to the cloud. Which none of the big players have (for free) yet.

     

    And I do think MS have a time issue. I remember hearing that they had to reboot the WP7 (was Windows Mobile 7) project. Right now, the Samsung Galaxy S is look really sweet to me... but I'm having trouble pulling the trigger now that WP7 is coming out in late Oct.

    They have a good over-the-air update story though.  It's not like what you buy at launch is what you're stuck with.  They can easily add to their app platform in the months after launch.  So V1 phones will become V2 phones. 

  • User profile image
    Charles

    Sven Groot said:
    Sven Groot said:
    *snip*

    So, any chance of getting an answer to my second question?

    Chances are good.

    C

  • User profile image
    jaimer

    Charles said:
    Sven Groot said:
    *snip*

    Chances are good.

    C

    Sven,

    The SIP has a button for language, and you can toggle across. If I am displaying say french, the default layout is french and the autocorrect is for french... I then click one key to toggle to English and now I can toggle to english.. Again, at this point I can toggle across EFIGS, but when we add Japanese, it will behave same way..

    The language does have to be installed/enabled; not sure if there is a better process for doing it, but in my phone what I do is enable the language once and from there on it is available as a choice..


    my phone has a hardware keyboard too, and I don't see a language button there, but I am guessing there is a way to do it. If I switch language on SIP and then open keyboard this is persisted so at minimum I can toggle through SIP and type away; again this is likely me.

     

    hth.

    Jaime

     

    PS -- to any one who is not getting answers, feel free to post question here, poke me at http://blogs.msdn.com/jaimer  with a pointer to questio. we are being trying to be as transparent as we can, but I might  be missing questions or in some cases we are reading it and trying to learn from it, so we are not altering the conversation much. It is great to see your perception and experiences. Thanks for sharing!!

     

     

  • User profile image
    jaimer

    Shining Arcanine said:
    Charles said:
    *snip*

    Charles, it is easy to infer from your post that the browser that ships in Windows Mobile 7 will be Internet Explorer. If you had not said that "you don't know what version of IE will ship in WP7", then Chrome or Firefox could have been possible too, but that comment narrows it to Internet Explorer.

    On Browser,

    Yes, the browser in the phone is IE.  It starts with an IE7 foundation, has fixes and improvements, and it became an IE 7.5 or equivalent .

    Microsoft is very committed to web standards -- yes, we slept at the wheel for a few years in 2006 or 2007 but we woke up a couple years ago and we are now running as fast as we can to HTML5 with IE9 -. 

    After making IE9 available in the desktop, the browser will make it onto the phone .. but I can't disclose the timeline on how soon after we release because we don't yet know it, rest assured we do want to have HTML5 in the phone and will do our best to get it in as soon as we can;   we will have to see how schedules align next year.

     

    With regards to V1 comments.

    I  think perception here might be stronger than reality.   I recall the iPhone 1.0 days and we are further ahead from there.  At same time, I do know new phones have features we have chosen not to enable due to security, user experience, or other concerns.  We will have to open these as soon as we can by listening to you (our developers) and our shared user base.  
    I don't call the phone a 1.0, but at same time I acknowledge that we don't have all the features that other phones have; in all cases we have more or better features and less (or not so powerful) features.   I am however confident this will change over time;  Silverlight and XNA is a strong foundation, and underneath we have a very powerful, secured and performant OS.  We have a solid foundation to iterate on quickly.  I am super excited about this. Reminds me of Silverlight where 3 years ago I was bummed hating codign to SL 1.0 using Javascript and now 3 years later I am thinking it rocks over its competitors (e.g. Flash)..    We are not as far behind as Silverlight was, so it should not take us 3 years; we will be able to delight users this year, and will be able to take marketshare year over year; this is a big opportunity, and developers who get in early have a chance to cash in..  {unlike other already saturated markets}

    Cheers!

    Jaime Rodriguez 

    [PS-- the above is my personal view, not that of my employer]

  • User profile image
    kettch

    jaimer said:
    Shining Arcanine said:
    *snip*

    On Browser,

    Yes, the browser in the phone is IE.  It starts with an IE7 foundation, has fixes and improvements, and it became an IE 7.5 or equivalent .

    Microsoft is very committed to web standards -- yes, we slept at the wheel for a few years in 2006 or 2007 but we woke up a couple years ago and we are now running as fast as we can to HTML5 with IE9 -. 

    After making IE9 available in the desktop, the browser will make it onto the phone .. but I can't disclose the timeline on how soon after we release because we don't yet know it, rest assured we do want to have HTML5 in the phone and will do our best to get it in as soon as we can;   we will have to see how schedules align next year.

     

    With regards to V1 comments.

    I  think perception here might be stronger than reality.   I recall the iPhone 1.0 days and we are further ahead from there.  At same time, I do know new phones have features we have chosen not to enable due to security, user experience, or other concerns.  We will have to open these as soon as we can by listening to you (our developers) and our shared user base.  
    I don't call the phone a 1.0, but at same time I acknowledge that we don't have all the features that other phones have; in all cases we have more or better features and less (or not so powerful) features.   I am however confident this will change over time;  Silverlight and XNA is a strong foundation, and underneath we have a very powerful, secured and performant OS.  We have a solid foundation to iterate on quickly.  I am super excited about this. Reminds me of Silverlight where 3 years ago I was bummed hating codign to SL 1.0 using Javascript and now 3 years later I am thinking it rocks over its competitors (e.g. Flash)..    We are not as far behind as Silverlight was, so it should not take us 3 years; we will be able to delight users this year, and will be able to take marketshare year over year; this is a big opportunity, and developers who get in early have a chance to cash in..  {unlike other already saturated markets}

    Cheers!

    Jaime Rodriguez 

    [PS-- the above is my personal view, not that of my employer]

    I in a blog post that IE is tooled so that it can be updated OTA without requiring a full ROM update. Is this true, and if so, are there any other components that can do this?

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    kettch said:
    jaimer said:
    *snip*

    I in a blog post that IE is tooled so that it can be updated OTA without requiring a full ROM update. Is this true, and if so, are there any other components that can do this?

    Whups. Nevermind Smiley

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    jaimer said:
    Charles said:
    *snip*

    Sven,

    The SIP has a button for language, and you can toggle across. If I am displaying say french, the default layout is french and the autocorrect is for french... I then click one key to toggle to English and now I can toggle to english.. Again, at this point I can toggle across EFIGS, but when we add Japanese, it will behave same way..

    The language does have to be installed/enabled; not sure if there is a better process for doing it, but in my phone what I do is enable the language once and from there on it is available as a choice..


    my phone has a hardware keyboard too, and I don't see a language button there, but I am guessing there is a way to do it. If I switch language on SIP and then open keyboard this is persisted so at minimum I can toggle through SIP and type away; again this is likely me.

     

    hth.

    Jaime

     

    PS -- to any one who is not getting answers, feel free to post question here, poke me at http://blogs.msdn.com/jaimer  with a pointer to questio. we are being trying to be as transparent as we can, but I might  be missing questions or in some cases we are reading it and trying to learn from it, so we are not altering the conversation much. It is great to see your perception and experiences. Thanks for sharing!!

     

     

    The SIP has a button for language, and you can toggle across. If I am displaying say french, the default layout is french and the autocorrect is for french... I then click one key to toggle to English and now I can toggle to english.. Again, at this point I can toggle across EFIGS, but when we add Japanese, it will behave same way.

    Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. None of the screenshots I've seen have shown this button and there's no obvious space for it, so I was afraid there wasn't going to be an option to switch keyboards.

     

    This is important if I ever wish to port my Japanese dictionary over. People who use Japanese dictionaries tend not to be fluent in Japanese so if using the Japanese UI was a requirement for typing in Japanese (once that support gets added) it wouldn't have been an option.

     

    It's also important if you ever want me to buy a WP7 device, since I depend on having English, Dutch and Japanese input available. Smiley

     

    For the time being though, I won't be able to port it because I do need some way to type in Japanese. Under Windows Mobile this problem was solved with a custom SIP (because the official Japanese SIP is only available on Japanese devices), but I don't think that'll be possible on WP7.

     

    This leaves me with two options: include the input method in the Japanese dictionary, or just wait until built-in support for Japanese input in WP7 becomes available.

     

    Thanks again.

  • User profile image
    Bas

    jaimer said:
    Shining Arcanine said:
    *snip*

    On Browser,

    Yes, the browser in the phone is IE.  It starts with an IE7 foundation, has fixes and improvements, and it became an IE 7.5 or equivalent .

    Microsoft is very committed to web standards -- yes, we slept at the wheel for a few years in 2006 or 2007 but we woke up a couple years ago and we are now running as fast as we can to HTML5 with IE9 -. 

    After making IE9 available in the desktop, the browser will make it onto the phone .. but I can't disclose the timeline on how soon after we release because we don't yet know it, rest assured we do want to have HTML5 in the phone and will do our best to get it in as soon as we can;   we will have to see how schedules align next year.

     

    With regards to V1 comments.

    I  think perception here might be stronger than reality.   I recall the iPhone 1.0 days and we are further ahead from there.  At same time, I do know new phones have features we have chosen not to enable due to security, user experience, or other concerns.  We will have to open these as soon as we can by listening to you (our developers) and our shared user base.  
    I don't call the phone a 1.0, but at same time I acknowledge that we don't have all the features that other phones have; in all cases we have more or better features and less (or not so powerful) features.   I am however confident this will change over time;  Silverlight and XNA is a strong foundation, and underneath we have a very powerful, secured and performant OS.  We have a solid foundation to iterate on quickly.  I am super excited about this. Reminds me of Silverlight where 3 years ago I was bummed hating codign to SL 1.0 using Javascript and now 3 years later I am thinking it rocks over its competitors (e.g. Flash)..    We are not as far behind as Silverlight was, so it should not take us 3 years; we will be able to delight users this year, and will be able to take marketshare year over year; this is a big opportunity, and developers who get in early have a chance to cash in..  {unlike other already saturated markets}

    Cheers!

    Jaime Rodriguez 

    [PS-- the above is my personal view, not that of my employer]

    I recall the iPhone 1.0 days and we are further ahead from there.

     

    I don't want to constantly sound negative about this but the fact alone that this needs to be pointed out worries me. The iPhone 1.0 came out years ago, I would expect nothing less than WP7 being better than a phone that is several years old. You might as well say "WP7 is a v1 phone, and already it's better than Alexander Graham Bell's V1 prototype was at the time."

     

    The iPhone 1.0 is history, and with good reason. What matters are the phones that are out now. WP7 needs to be as good or better as the iPhone 4, because that's what it'll be competing with. The fact that it's a 1.0 phone is no excuse: it doesn't mean it's coming out years ago; it's coming out now and needs to compete with current phones.

     

    I mean.. if the best thing to say about the phone's ability to compete with other phones is "Our v1 is better than their ancient v1 phone", then how does that not worry anyone on the WP7 team?

     

    The ability to change over time is great for technology-minded people but meaningless to consumers. When they buy a phone, they buy it on the basis of what it can do when they get it in their hands, not on the basis of what it may possibly be able to do at some undefined time in the future.

  • User profile image
    rhm

    jaimer said:
    Shining Arcanine said:
    *snip*

    On Browser,

    Yes, the browser in the phone is IE.  It starts with an IE7 foundation, has fixes and improvements, and it became an IE 7.5 or equivalent .

    Microsoft is very committed to web standards -- yes, we slept at the wheel for a few years in 2006 or 2007 but we woke up a couple years ago and we are now running as fast as we can to HTML5 with IE9 -. 

    After making IE9 available in the desktop, the browser will make it onto the phone .. but I can't disclose the timeline on how soon after we release because we don't yet know it, rest assured we do want to have HTML5 in the phone and will do our best to get it in as soon as we can;   we will have to see how schedules align next year.

     

    With regards to V1 comments.

    I  think perception here might be stronger than reality.   I recall the iPhone 1.0 days and we are further ahead from there.  At same time, I do know new phones have features we have chosen not to enable due to security, user experience, or other concerns.  We will have to open these as soon as we can by listening to you (our developers) and our shared user base.  
    I don't call the phone a 1.0, but at same time I acknowledge that we don't have all the features that other phones have; in all cases we have more or better features and less (or not so powerful) features.   I am however confident this will change over time;  Silverlight and XNA is a strong foundation, and underneath we have a very powerful, secured and performant OS.  We have a solid foundation to iterate on quickly.  I am super excited about this. Reminds me of Silverlight where 3 years ago I was bummed hating codign to SL 1.0 using Javascript and now 3 years later I am thinking it rocks over its competitors (e.g. Flash)..    We are not as far behind as Silverlight was, so it should not take us 3 years; we will be able to delight users this year, and will be able to take marketshare year over year; this is a big opportunity, and developers who get in early have a chance to cash in..  {unlike other already saturated markets}

    Cheers!

    Jaime Rodriguez 

    [PS-- the above is my personal view, not that of my employer]

    Silverlight does rock over it's competitors in many ways: control and data templating, layout controls, and of course the biggest thing of all - being able to program in .NET languages. But there things that still need to be improved including typography, and one thing where Silverlight is behind Flash: support for 3d.

     

    Flash's support for 3d only currently extends to a lame retained-mode API (like WPF's), but still, developers have been able to do some interesting stuff with it. In the next release they will add WebGL support, giving a proper immediate-mode 3d API equivalent to OpenGL. Flash 3d apps won't be as performant as native apps, but if history is any gauge, Flash developers will get a lot more out of that little browser plugin that people are expecting.

     

    All Silverlight has is the minimum support necessary for doing 'coverflow' style animations. Silverlight desperately needs to be merged with the XNA framework, or at least the graphics portion of it. XNA developers on the XBox need a way to do GUIs that's better than cooking their own up from low-level primatives, and having the two APIs split on the phone is really going to hurt for certain classes of app: AR, anything involving panorama rendering like Streetview, app that do data visualisation and games that require substantial UI componentry all have a difficult choice to make.

     

    Is this split between Silverlight and XNA because they come from different teams (maybe even different divisions)? Or because Silverlight uses so much of the machine's resources you can't maintain both at the same time on a handheld? I know you won't be able to say anything about future plans, but has merging them even been discussed?

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    jaimer said:
    Charles said:
    *snip*

    Sven,

    The SIP has a button for language, and you can toggle across. If I am displaying say french, the default layout is french and the autocorrect is for french... I then click one key to toggle to English and now I can toggle to english.. Again, at this point I can toggle across EFIGS, but when we add Japanese, it will behave same way..

    The language does have to be installed/enabled; not sure if there is a better process for doing it, but in my phone what I do is enable the language once and from there on it is available as a choice..


    my phone has a hardware keyboard too, and I don't see a language button there, but I am guessing there is a way to do it. If I switch language on SIP and then open keyboard this is persisted so at minimum I can toggle through SIP and type away; again this is likely me.

     

    hth.

    Jaime

     

    PS -- to any one who is not getting answers, feel free to post question here, poke me at http://blogs.msdn.com/jaimer  with a pointer to questio. we are being trying to be as transparent as we can, but I might  be missing questions or in some cases we are reading it and trying to learn from it, so we are not altering the conversation much. It is great to see your perception and experiences. Thanks for sharing!!

     

     

    AFAIK, you can acquire apps only through the marketplace, unless if you're a company.

    Can you talk about the experience for hobbyists and researchers? How do we go about distributing apps to our peers without having to use the marketplace (especially when our apps are not meant for a marketplace)?

     

    My school offers a course called "Designing Usable Interfaces" in which they use Android as the platform choice for assignments. The final project is to work in teams to build a complete interface. The teams must submit the apps to be listed on the course website to be shared with everyone else. These apps are by no means production quality and are not suitable for public downloading (there'd be no point). What do you have in place to support this scenario?

  • User profile image
    JeremyJ

    MasterPie said:
    jaimer said:
    *snip*

    AFAIK, you can acquire apps only through the marketplace, unless if you're a company.

    Can you talk about the experience for hobbyists and researchers? How do we go about distributing apps to our peers without having to use the marketplace (especially when our apps are not meant for a marketplace)?

     

    My school offers a course called "Designing Usable Interfaces" in which they use Android as the platform choice for assignments. The final project is to work in teams to build a complete interface. The teams must submit the apps to be listed on the course website to be shared with everyone else. These apps are by no means production quality and are not suitable for public downloading (there'd be no point). What do you have in place to support this scenario?

    I read that the Marketplace will have a public and private section for your apps.  The private section will allow you to control who gets to see your app.  Your school could create an account with a private section and only make it accessable to the students.

    (Someone please correct me if I am wrong)

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    JeremyJ said:
    MasterPie said:
    *snip*

    I read that the Marketplace will have a public and private section for your apps.  The private section will allow you to control who gets to see your app.  Your school could create an account with a private section and only make it accessable to the students.

    (Someone please correct me if I am wrong)

    Ah, neat. One step further, it would be nice if you could link to the marketplace app...sort of treat marketplace as a host.

    Then, it wouldn't make so much of a difference having to acquire the app through the marketplace vs through your own medium.

  • User profile image
    JeremyJ

    53:10 – Deep linking referral where users share an app with their friends. The friend receives an email with a link on their phone or  their pc and leads them to the relevant section on the market place. If they are on their computer, they are prompted to download a  marketplace client where they can then complete the purchase.

     

     

     

    from this article: http://wmpoweruser.com/more-details-on-apps-the-wp7-marketplace/

     

     

     

    A little light on the details but at least it is something.

  • User profile image
    kettch

    I would still like to see some sort of Marketplace-managed side loading capability. It's fine if the application has to be vetted through the marketplace and signed by them. I'm just concerned about when there is a lot of data that comes with the application.

    I have a customer who currently distributes an application with a proprietary reference library to their people in the field. The size of the data is over 500MB. They don't always have access to a decent connection. It would be really nice if the marketplace could create an ISO that would allow the application to be loaded onto a connected device. It would still have the right approval, signing, be registered with the marketplace, and be subject to all of the standard rules. Having the deep linking is cool, but what if that link is leaked somehow? Why should they have to download a marketplace client? How do I simplify this for the end user?

  • User profile image
    Evok

    Just thought this post needed updating. It looks like pivot and panoramas are going to be available for us after all. Though, we are still missing a few other really nice to have

  • User profile image
    Mierk

    After having my device for a few days, I have still not been able to find a way to enter special characters with any of the different keyboard language layouts.  I am specifically looking to be able to enter characters like â,é, etc.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Mierk

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    @Mierk: You can tap and hold down the keyboard buttons to gain access to additional characters. Specifically, holding down a, e, i, o, or 'u' provides access to the characters you seek.

  • User profile image
    contextfree

    , jaimer wrote

    After making IE9 available in the desktop, the browser will make it onto the phone .. but I can't disclose the timeline on how soon after we release because we don't yet know it, rest assured we do want to have HTML5 in the phone and will do our best to get it in as soon as we can;   we will have to see how schedules align next year.

    I think you not only need to invest in the browser, but you probably need to rethink how IE development is managed between desktop and mobile. It doesn't make sense anymore for the IE team to be part of the desktop Windows division, develop for Windows, and only later port to mobile (how I understand it to work currently, correct me if I'm wrong). Mobile should be a priority from the beginning. If anything mobile IE is a lot more important than desktop IE as there are plenty of other browsers on desktop Windows, while Windows Phone, being a minority platform, benefits more from access to a rich standards-based application base to protect against everyone getting locked in to iPhone or Android-exclusive apps.

     

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