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Talking 64-bit with Microsoft and AMD (Chat 1) transcription

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    androidi

    On May 5 there will be Executive Chat - Get Technical with Microsoft and AMD Execs "to discuss the development and plans for enterprise-ready, high-availability systems for which the AMD Opteron processor based on AMD64 technology is optimized".

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    androidi

    Wink My time was off a bit. It's in 20½ hours from this post. May 3 18:00 UTC

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    Comment removed at user's request.

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    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator): Welcome to today’s chat. Our topic today is…64-bit with AMD and Microsoft

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert): dede, donna, and Paul are AMD guys

    Before we begin, I would like to begin by posting the chat rules and instructions for customers:

    1. This chat will last for one hour. During this hour, our Experts will respond to as many questions as they can. Please understand that there are some questions we cannot respond to due to lack of information or because the information is not yet public.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator): 2. We encourage you to submit questions for our Experts. To do so, type your questions in the send box, select the Submit a Question radio button and click SEND. Questions sent directly to the Guest Chat room will not be answered by the Experts, but we encourage other community members to assist.
    3. We ask that you stay on topic for the duration of the chat. This helps the Guests and Experts follow the conversation more easily. We invite you to ask off topic questions after this chat is over, but not during.
    4. Please only submit your question once. Submitting your question more than once is against the Chat Code of Conduct.
    5. Please abide by the Chat Code of Conduct.

    We are pleased to welcome our Experts for today’s chat. I will have them introduce themselves now.


    dede (Expert): hi all, this is dede in commercial marketing at AMD

    Paul (Expert):
    Q: What kind of performance increase can we expect in a 32bit application running on a 64bit Processor and with the 64bit Windows XP when that application uses 3D graphics and high quality sound?

    A: Tough question! Firstly, even running 32-bit code on AMD's 64-bit processor is going to give a bit of a performance boost, due to the architectural improvements. Now, when a 32-bit app runs on the 64-bit Windows, the system calls underneath the application will be 64-bit (WOW64), so they get a performance boot also. Typically 64-bit code will run faster than 32-bit code due to the addiitonal registers and improved calling conventions, etc. As for questifying a particular application, I can not guess - you would have to measure. Paul.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert): Hello everyone! My name is Victor Mux. I’m a US National System Builder Technical Strategist for Microsoft, easier said Team BOB.

    donna (Expert): Hello....this is Donna Becker with the AMD/Microsoft Alliance Team!

    Paul (Expert): Hi, I am Paul, I work in software for AMD in Austin.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator): Hello all! This is Bret also with the Microsoft BOB team. Glad you could join us today for this discussion on 64-bit with MS and AMD.

    Paul (Expert):
    Q: In longhorn, with USB drivers being moved into user-space, can we expect support for 32bit USB device drivers?

    A: Kernel drivers must be 64-bit when running the 64-bit kernel. User mode drivers are a more complex story, but typically they run in the context of a service. The bitness of the service must match the bitness of the driver. For example, the spooler is 64-bit, so user mode print drivers must be 64-bit. As for USB, sorry, that is the limit of my knowledge.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: ***In the 64bit version of the OS

    A: What's the question, Manip?

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: In longhorn, with USB drivers being moved into user-space, can we expect support for 32bit USB device drivers?

    A: Longhorn will come in 2 flavors. A 32-bit and a 64-bit. If you are using devices like USB pen drives, flash disk, etc then the inbox drivers will work. If the USB device requires a driver then it's up to the manufacture to provide the 64-bit driver.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: How much more performance will we see in Dual Core AMD 64?

    A: server? client?

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Is Microsoft planning on releasing 64-Bit drivers for their various hardware products such as Wireless Network Cards? Will we see an x64 IntelliType and IntelliPoint soon?

    A: Windows has a lot of 64-bit inbox drivers to support hardware. For Microsoft hardware like the IntelliType and IntelliPoint, drivers will be available.

    donna (Expert):
    Q: Does AMD intend on moving all its processors to 64bit and if so when?

    A: AMD plans to ship our greatest majority of processors with 64-bit.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: When will we see Media Center 64bit?

    A: We are looking at the Long Horn release period for x64 Media Center.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: What is the production status of Windows XP 64?

    A: It is currently shipping and available in the System Builder channel.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: There's some debate going on in the Guest Chat about the retail availablitiy of WinXP-64. Will the OS be available in the retail chain, or only OEM?

    A: It's only available for OEMs and not retail.

    donna (Expert):
    Q: Will AMD have a similar x32 > x64 swapping program for their processors? Or maybe discounts? (I know, I know, who would want to let go of any AMD processor )

    A: AMD will not be offering a similar x64 swap program. Please visit AMD's marketbuider.amd.com web site for more information regarding our partner programs.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: Dede, Client Dual Core AMd x64

    A: On a client PC, Dual-Core AMD 64 will provide much faster user response times. This was supposed to be the promise of multi-threading, but multi-threading doesn't work that well if you don't have adequate CPU resources per thread.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: Dede, Client Dual Core AMd x64

    A: For office productivity multitasking apps and environments - 15-20% incremental performance.For digital media and multimedia multi-threaded apps - 20-80% incremental performance

    donna (Expert):
    Q: Will AMD be updating their Opteron series of duel core CPUs with 64bit version of the same in the near future?

    A: Opteron has been 64-bit since it's introduction in 2003. So to clarify, our dual core Opteron CPU's are 64-bit as well.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Why the lack of support before RTM and after RTM from Microsoft's side, I now have a non-fully operational copy of Windows. I can't use my mouse drivers (from MS) and I can't use shell extensions like Windows Media Player taskbar...you've had time.

    A: I realize that there are some difficulties. Part of that has to do with the consumer segment of the business being on a different rev-cycle than the Windows Group. I know that they are working very hard to get everything up to date as quickly as they can.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Microsoft has recently shared that Microsoft.com, Messenger Services, and MSN Search Services are all running on x64 Servers. Are the servers running on AMD or Intel hardware?

    A: We operate a heterogeneous environment so yes we do use AMD servers.

    Paul (Expert):
    Q: The success of XP64 is tied to the availability of 64bit apps from other vendors, can you give us any idea as to when some of the major apps can be expected? Is Microsoft putting any pressure on vendors to get thier 64bit apps to market?

    A: Not really true ... 32-bit apps run just fine on a 64-bit OS !

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Is Microsoft pushing hardware vendors hard enough to provide relevant drivers? I can't use my TV card thanks to hauppauge and co, will Microsoft be encouraging OEMs to support 64bit?

    A: Microsoft has made the 64-bit driver specifications available to all manufactures. It's up to them to supply 64-bit drivers. We have been seeing alot of manufactures already suppling 64-bit drivers on their websites for their devices.

    donna (Expert):
    Q: WinHEC keynote had a cool SQL demo of how the performance in SQL server can scale much better on x64 than 32 bit. It was also mentioned the setups being compared were identical. Do you have any knowledge how much memory the setups had?

    A: 32 G's of memory

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Is Microsoft pushing hardware vendors hard enough to provide relevant drivers? I can't use my TV card thanks to hauppauge and co, will Microsoft be encouraging OEMs to support 64bit?

    A: We are pushing as hard as we are able to but quite frankly we aren't able to push nearly as hard as you all can. We encourage you to demand those 64-bit drivers from your hardware manufacturers.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Can we expect a QFE to fix the inability to put Media Player into mini-mode?

    A: Yes there will be a fix but don't have a timeframe.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: In a dual AMD 64 server system, are the individual processor/memory buses independent or linked?

    A: AMD64 Direct Connect Architecture integrates the northbridge, HyperTransport I/O links (1 on Athlon 64, 3 links on Opteron), and a memory controller onto the processor die. In an dual-processor or multi-processor system, the Opteron processors use HT links to connect to each other and run a coherent memory protocol across those links. They can then see each other's memory (because memory is directly attached to Opterons). When dual-core processors are in DP or MP systems they behave the same, but there are two CPU cores in each processor/socket. The two cores share access to locally attached memory and share access to the coherent HT link to other CPUs.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: Are there any specific optimizations to the Windows x64 platform for AMD64, that are not there for Intel's EMT64?

    A: no

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: When can we expect Windows Update to be rolled out to support 64bit?

    A: It currently supports it but there are no new updates because it just launched.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: With the preview copies of XP64 I have seen many people having problems with SATA controllers. Have any of the drivers for the major players in the SATA field included in the final release, and will Longhorn expand the support of SATA drivers even more?

    A: As technology moves forward, more drivers will be available. I just built a server and I went to the chipset manufacture of the SATA controller and downloaded a 64-bit driver for it. It worked without any problems.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: hello.........i have a easy question.......may be is a worn site........but tell me if you can: i have a pc whit windows XP but i need netmeeting.......all version of netmeeting are for all windows less xp..... what i do??

    A: It is actually there just not real visible. If you go to the run command and type in "conf" it will show up.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Slightly off-topic, but can we get a free Windows XP 64bit on OEM copies of XP Pro?

    A: Please visit http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/trial.mspx

    Paul (Expert):
    Q: Compiling in-line assembly on the x64 platform (for an x64 target) is no longer possible, breaking alot of existing code. Can this behavior be overridden?

    A: Put the assembler in a different source file. You would not really want inline assembly to "just work" because ou need to change it (rax not eax) etc.

    donna (Expert):
    Q: What are AMD's plans for the near furture of thier 64bit chips? I've been hearing that the dual core chips will use the same 939 pin-outs, will AMD be dropping/phasing out the 754 model?

    A: Yes, we are slowly migrating the Athlon64 from 754 to 939 pin package. The Athlon64 3700 will be the last Athlon64 754 pin processor.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: I'm seeing a lot of 32-bit driver issues. By any chance, would Virtual PC or Virtual Server allow these drivers to work in a software-emulated VM when they won't work natively on 64-bit?

    A: Virtual PC does not work with x64. x64 requires 64-bit drivers. Please visit http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/default.mspx for more information.

    donna (Expert):
    Q: What are AMD's plans for the near furture of thier 64bit chips? I've been hearing that the dual core chips will use the same 939 pin-outs, will AMD be dropping/phasing out the 754 model?

    A: Du

    Paul (Expert):
    Q: Does AMD make use of SimICS for 64-bit platform virtualization? Assuming yes, how was XP x64 installed? I receive trap exceptions upon booting of the media on the simulated Hammer arch.

    A: Simics was used in the early development days, but I am not aware of anyone still using it. Suggest you report the problem on one of the Simics newsgroups to get them to debug it. It used to work, but that was on pre-release XP 64-bit obviously.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: What is the timeframe for x64 compliant Virtual Server ?

    A: It's in the works but we don't have a timeframe for it.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: I understand MS Exchange will not run on 64-bit processors. When will it be ready? Are there other backoffice applications or MS software that also won't do 64 bit?

    A: MS Exchange 2003 WILL run on a 64-bit processor. It will NOT run on a 64-bit Operating System. The next version of Exchange will be 64-bit compatible and that will be available late next year.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Is there a discovery utility you can run to determine whether or not you have incompatible 16-bit apps or installers? If so, can it scan installation CDs?

    A: There is no discovery utility to determine if 32-bit apps run with WOW64. You have to test the applications manually or contact the manufacture of the product.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: How come I have to pay so much more for an AMD dual core processor? AMD says the pricing is "seamless", I take that to mean very expensive! :-O

    A: moving from single-core to dual-core is more than our usual speed bump, so its not priced as a typical processors...pricing initially higher in the beginning, over time dual-core will have mainstream pricing

    Paul (Expert):
    Q: Paul, to follow up on your answer - What does Microsoft and/or AMD use now for x64 platform virtualization?

    A: Please clarify - are you talking about virtualization products such as vmware, or are you talking about processor simulation tools such as Simics ?

    donna (Expert):
    Q: What are AMD's plans for the near furture of thier 64bit chips? I've been hearing that the dual core chips will use the same 939 pin-outs, will AMD be dropping/phasing out the 754 model?

    A: The dual core Athlon 64 X2 processor is indeed 939 pin based. The good news is if you’re using a 939 pin PCI-e based motherboard, you do not have to upgrade your platform to support the new Athlon 64 X2. The only “new” infrastructure required is an Athlon 64 FX quality heatsink (0.22C/W)


    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Are there other MS applications or utilities that will not run on a 64-bit OS at this time?

    A: I know the current version of exchange does not work with 64-bit OS. You might want to post this question at http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/communities/x64.mspx .

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Does Virtual Server work with 64-bit?

    A: Virtual Server does not work with 64-bit. There will be an update of Virtual Server in the future that will. We don't have a timeframe on that yet.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Right now, it seems that Microsoft is taking on a "let's make our applications run under Windows x64 - even as 32-bit applications" strategy. When will Microsoft start to release native x64 applications?

    A: Over the next year. From a business planning perspective, it made better logistical sense to slipstream 64-bit native apps into the market after 64-bit Windows had shipped. Since Longhorn will be predominantly 64-bit and most computers sold at that time will have 64-bit processors, this next year will be a ramp-up phase to 64-bit.

    Paul (Expert):
    Q: Paul, processor simulation. The goal would be to get XP x64 installed/running for development/testing

    A: AMD does have a couple of internal processor simulation tools. We are looking at ways of making one of these externally available, but that it still a work in progress, so no promises that this will happen. As you can buy 64-bit hardware really cheaply these days, why would you need to simulate it ?

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: When a user trades up thier XP32 license for and XP64, can they reverse back to the 32bit if they have too many problems with thier hardware?

    A: It's a one way street. The 32-bit media is traded for the 64-bit media. Please visit http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/upgrade/default.mspx for more information.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: So when will AMD dual core pricing go "mainstream"? This is a huge stumbling block to my adoption of dual core platforms.

    A: It will waterfall down into the middle of our price bands over time, just like faster frequencies do over time.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Hi, i have a question look i have windows server 2003 everything is enable but windows media encoder v9 cant connect to the server windows media components (error message: 0xc00d2fob)

    A: Hi Thom, this is a chat on 64-bit Windows. If you have technical issues, please consult our support groups at http://oem.microsoft.com/script/ContentPage.aspx?PageID=550460.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: So when will AMD dual core pricing go "mainstream"? This is a huge stumbling block to my adoption of dual core platforms.

    A: Athlon 64 X2 will be introduced in model numbers above the single core Athlon 64 processors (above 4000+) and the pricing will be reflected as such.

    Paul (Expert):
    Q: Paul, some of us would rather utilize existing hardware (that's read: I am cheap.). 

    A: But you are not too cheap to pay for a simics license ?!

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Do Windows XP x64 VLM images exist?

    A: There is no way to virtualize a 64-bit environment on a 32-bit processor. 64-bit by nature is hardware dependent. So until there is a 64-but version of Virtual PC running on a 64-Bit Operating System on a 64-bit Processor, no.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Bret, VLM meaning volume licensed media. Sorry for the confusion.

    A: Sorry, keyed on images instead of VLM (thought you might have meant VM). Anyway, YES, Windows x64 is available through licensing agreements.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Does dede utilize a stainless-steel toaster?

    A: I have it on good authority that the answer is no. She does however have a top of the line blender.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: What is the power consumption of the 2.6 DC?

    A: 110 watts for athlon 64 x2, 95 watts for Opteron, 55 watts for Opteron blades

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: How many device drivers are WHQL cert'd for Opteron platforms?

    A: That depends on the chipset and/or devices manufactures. Please visit http://www.windowsmarketplace.com/category.aspx?bCatID=442 for a list of the manufactures.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: What is the power consumption of the 2.6 DC?

    A: We are not shipping 2.6 Opteron dc yet, however.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Is there a Microsoft logo program for x64 certified hardware and software?

    A: Yes, there is an existing logo program for both. For more information please visit http://winqual.microsoft.com/">http://winqual.microsoft.com

    dede (Expert): Tracey Rains, yeah?

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Should the goal for early adoption of x64 be validation of WOW32 (or WOW16) compatibility of applications, outside of grabbing 64-bit drivers ?

    A: First, there is no WOW16. There is no 16-bit compatibility for Windows x64. The goal of early adoption is to provide the increased performance and horsepower where it seems appropriate. Testing of existing utilized 32-bit apps prior to widespread deployment is absolutely essential though.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: Can WOW64 redirection be temporarily disabled at the OS level? I'm aware of Wow64DisableWow64FsRedirection() but that's thread specific.

    A: No. Without it 32-bit applications would not function.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Since we have different types of x64 processors (AMD and Intel) which are compatible but with there own timings will there be a posibility to have custom kernels for a processor so it is more suitable.

    A: No, that really wouldn't be feasible to maintain 2 different versions

    dede (Expert):
    Q: Any particular recommendation for motherboards, based on in-house testing?

    A: I'll have to send you to our recommended mobo page http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_869,00.html

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Does SQL Server 2000 run on 64-bit Windows?

    A: Yes, but you have to use SP4. We have seen upto 17-20% increase in performance.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: I am not quite sure how the VMs like VS/VMWare work under x64. I presume you can install either 32 or 64 bit Win under them and if you install 32 bit and want to use some 32bit drivers, can the 64 bit host OS act as a proxy for these devices to work in VM?

    A: Virtual PC does not work under 64-bit currently. You cannot install 64-bit windows into Virtual PC. Since everything is virtualized in a Virtual PC environment, drivers don't really enter into it.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: When will you get to 3GHz?

    A: We're getting closer... 

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: Can I run W2K3 Server x64 as a 32b OS until drivers get cert'd?

    A: Are you talking about downgrade rights? If so, then yes you can.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator):
    Q: When Virtual Server is supported under 64bit Windows, will it support both 32bit and 64bit guest machines?

    A: It is not currently supported in a 64bit environment.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: What are some things the experts reccomend to ease the transition from 32-bit Windows to Windows x64?

    A: Please visit http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/upgrade/default.mspx for upgrading to x64.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert):
    Q: So I can't install x64 run it as 32b OS? Then I would need to rip and replace when ready. That stinks.

    A: X64 OS is 64-bit. It does not come as both.

    dede (Expert):
    Q: follow-on mobo: sites a nav nightmare -> there's nothing about X2 tested boards.

    A: We're sampling our customers now with Athlon 64 X2 but it's not out yet...we just launched Opteron Dual Core in April.

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator): Thank all of you for coming to today's chat. We hope that you enjoyed it and we look forward to future joint webcasts with our friends at AMD.

    donna (Expert): Thanks for the great questions - until next time!

    dede (Expert): Bye! Thanks for all the questions and messages that came my way! You've been a great audience.....

    Paul (Expert): Thanks for some great questions. Until next time. Paul.

    Victor Mux [MSFT] (Expert): Thanks everyone for joining us today. It has been a pleasure. Please visit http://oem.microsoft.com/backroom for future chats and webcasts!

    Bret [aka BOB] (Moderator): Take care everyone.

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