Coffeehouse Thread

47 posts

Forum Read Only

This forum has been made read only by the site admins. No new threads or comments can be added.

Fact or Fiction???

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    Buzza

    Could anyone shed any light on the accuracy of this article?

    http://www.microsoft-watch.com/article2/0,1995,1820607,00.asp


    Other than Avalon and Indigo - what are the other 'major' enhancements for longhorn.

    I know there is Aero (the new UI - that uses avalon).

    Anything else?

    What components will be using .NET?

  • User profile image
    Steve411

    leave it at "undecided" Smiley

  • User profile image
    scobleizer

    It's true.

    Several factors.

    1) Most of the Windows developers at Microsoft are C++ types. If you've been coding in C++ for 15 to 25 years, are you going to be more productive in that language, or a new language that is only a few years old?
    2) C++ code can still be more performant and made to run in less memory with less resources than C#. There's a big caveat there: as long as you're a top-notch C++ programmer. If you aren't all that great then you'd be better off sticking with C# or VB.NET.
    3) There's a rule in software development at Microsoft: take no dependencies if you want to ship on time. The Longhorn team made a decision to take no dependencies on other teams. To do so would mean waiting for technology to be finished. Remember, .NET 2.0 isn't yet finished. To build Longhorn on top of .NET 2.0 would mean building a house on a sand foundation. Not good. How about building on top of 1.1? That wouldn't be good either because Windows developers need many of the features that are in 2.0.
    4) The "don't rewrite from scratch" Joel Spolsky rule. It's a good rule to follow if you want to ship anytime soon. Since existing versions of Windows were built in C++, rewriting pieces of them in C# or VB.NET would mean breaking this rule and potentially lengthening development time.

  • User profile image
    scobleizer

    I should say "it's mostly true." Since I haven't seen every single piece of Longhorn yet (and most of it is still under development). It's quite possible that there's some .NET code that'll ship in Longhorn somewhere. Just not in major pieces.

  • User profile image
    Buzza

    scobleizer wrote:
    I should say "it's mostly true." Since I haven't seen every single piece of Longhorn yet (and most of it is still under development). It's quite possible that there's some .NET code that'll ship in Longhorn somewhere. Just not in major pieces.


    So isn't AERO the new UI for Longhorn, and if so and AERO is built on Avalon, then is it safe to say that the part of Avalon that AERO is built on is not managed?

  • User profile image
    scobleizer

    Yes, Aero is the new UI for Longhorn.

    Most of Aero is not built on top of Avalon, as far as I understand.

    Yes, it's safe to say that the part of Avalon that is used in Longhorn (or that Aero uses) is not managed. Correct.

  • User profile image
    r_keith_hill

    Does that mean WinFX is dead?  If that's the case then major bummer.  I was looking forward to the succession of Win32 and obtuse APIs (at least compared to .NET FCL).  I guess I'll have to take that WinFX poster off my cube wall.  Doh!

  • User profile image
    TomasDeml

    And what about Indigo? It's said to be fully managed, isn't it?

  • User profile image
    scobleizer

    >Does that mean WinFX is dead? Indigo?

    NOOOOOOO!!

    WinFX and Indigo are completely alive and are, at least in part, built on managed code.

    But, WinFX and Indigo have been decoupled from Longhorn. How do you know that?

    They run on Windows XP and Windows Server 2003.

    We're talking about code that's only making it into Windows, not about packs or applications or other things that run on top of it.

  • User profile image
    r_keith_hill

    Whew, my beautiful WinFX poster can stay on the wall. Smiley  Seriously, it's good to know that the WinFX initiative hasn't silently died.

  • User profile image
    Buzza

    Longhorn Developer FAQ

    Alright help me here:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/longhorn/support/lhdevfaq/default.aspx#7mzh3brp

    this said:


    Is C# used for any core features of Longhorn?

    Yes, for example most of Avalon is written using C#.

     

  • User profile image
    scobleizer

    Buzza,

    Avalon is no longer a core feature of Longhorn. Hope that helps. Back when that article was written it was, now it's not.

    Avalon is, again, decoupled from Longhorn. I am running Avalon on Windows XP here.

  • User profile image
    scobleizer

    >BTW, Scoble's spin is probably factually true and pretty good.

    Damn, why is everything I write "spin." I'm being dreadfully honest in this thread -- to the point that I'm sure I'll get a call from someone in PR tomorrow.

    This isn't spin. It's from hundreds of interviews (including one with Jim Allchin, the guy who runs Longhorn) and working with developers who know what's going on.

  • User profile image
    Buzza

    Cool, thanks for the clarification.

    I am also running Avalon (and Indigo) on a VPC instance of XP - have not gone 'deep' into it yet though.

  • User profile image
    Acladeus

    lol Buzza, and all I did was to flick an interesting link round the office Smiley

  • User profile image
    scobleizer

    >Robert Hess was announcing it like it was set in stone back then bringing on the project leaders and talking about it with some degree of confidence.

    Yup, I was pretty confident back then too.

    But then we got to the PDC and developers and CTOs said "nice, but ain't gonna use any of this stuff until at least 2010."

    Think about it, how long will it be before Longhorn gets any kind of massive adoption? Based on adoption curves of XP, it'll be years, even after Longhorn ships.

    So, the decision was made to go and completely rethink Longhorn and the strategy around Avalon/WinFX/WinFS/Indigo.

    That's why today those things will run on Windows XP.

    Yes, it takes us a while, but we do listen to customers when they tell us we're smoking crack.

  • User profile image
    Buzza

    I think everyone was wrapped when Avalon and Indigo were said to be dis-assembled from longhorn and made into a platform that could be run on previous Window versions (XP at least).

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    Yeah, because given the choice between an executable they can sell to everyone and one they can sell only to Longhorn users, ISV's are all going to compile their apps to the broken executable format. That's really going to happen.

Conversation locked

This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.