Coffeehouse Thread

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An interview with Linus Trovalds...

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  • NuTcAsE

    http://blogs.siliconvalley.com/gmsv/2005/06/an_interview_wi.html#more

    An interesting read on how open source views Microsoft.

  • MisterDonut

    All empires eventually crumble.. 
       Rome. 
       Germany. 
       Etc.

    In time, yes, Microsoft will Crumble, as will Linux, the USA, etc.., Sure, it might take 1000 years for some of this, but it time, everything fades away.

  • MisterDonut

    Beer28 wrote:
    I agree with everything Linus said about Microsoft.


    Why am I not surprised...

  • ScanIAm

    Beer28 wrote:
    I agree with everything Linus said about Microsoft.

    Why does that not surprise me.  I loved the leading questions. 

    Microsoft has spent so much time protecting the desktop that a myriad of other opportunities passed it by -- search, for example. Open source software is cutting into Microsoft's virtual monopoly of desktop software as governments and corporations become attracted to the cost savings they offer. Meanwhile, innovators like Apple and Google are becoming more prominent in the technology universe. What do you see happening to Microsoft in the years ahead?

    That's like asking "So, are you still beating your wife?"



    Beer28 wrote:

    It's interesting that 95% of the interview focused on Linus's views on Microsoft.
    I think he's right on the money, 10 years and we can kiss the defacto MS desktop goodbye. I can't wait to see all the new innovation that comes out when the marketplace is reopened.


    See, that is where you and the Linux Jihad have lost your minds.  The market is open.  And, if you were paying attention to it, The market likes some of the Linux products.  But they like the MSFT products more.  Too bad you are unable to tell the difference.

    Beer28 wrote:

    I would like to see a new influx of commodore brand computers running a linux variant or amigaOS or some other cool stuff. MS has had it's stranglehold on the home PC for something like 15 years now. When it begins to fade it will be like a breath of fresh air for consumers.


    I'm pretty sure that the various profitable hardare and software companies are looking forward to having to support 2+ OSs and God knows how many different hardware platforms.  That would really make sense.

    See this happened many, many years ago, when the Commodore and Amiga and whatever brand hardware machines were available.  Each one had the opportunity to succeed as the defacto standard, but it turns out that the ugly duckling, Wintel, won out. 

    The battle is over and you lost.  Be a good sport and go home now.

  • figuerres

    Beer28 wrote:
    I agree with everything Linus said about Microsoft.

    It's interesting that 95% of the interview focused on Linus's views on Microsoft.
    I think he's right on the money, 10 years and we can kiss the defacto MS desktop goodbye. I can't wait to see all the new innovation that comes out when the marketplace is reopened.

    I would like to see a new influx of commodore brand computers running a linux variant or amigaOS or some other cool stuff. MS has had it's stranglehold on the home PC for something like 15 years now. When it begins to fade it will be like a breath of fresh air for consumers.


    well I'd like to see a few of the ideas in Linux and some of the ideas in the AmigaOS and a few of the ideas in the Mac OS and a few of the ones in windows all blended together and made into a real system that takes us to the next level...

    as Linux is really just a "re-build" of UNIX
    and Mac has a few good tricks under the hood to keep.

    the Amiga was almost a "clean room" system but does have a bit of UNIX in it's blood.

    WIndows is so much derived from DOS which in turn is based on CP/M and MP/M.

    the key will be to have an OS that runs on the hardware folks have.... unless you can give out free computers to everyone....

    just as a "what if"

    what if Jack (the guy who started Commodore) had not bought Amiga and say DEC or Motorola had?  and then sold it by the millions...

    what would we be using today?

  • ScanIAm

    Beer28 wrote:
    I as a consumer would like to go and be able to buy a new PC design, like a modern day Commodore amiga machine, but I can't.

    That would be because nobody sells them.  And nobody in their right mind would start a company to try and sell them.  There's no money in it and you'd have to have deep pockets to keep the company afloat.
    Beer28 wrote:

    I can't because of microsoft. I'd have a hard time even getting a machine with linux preloaded though it's becoming more and more popular. If i was in europe, I'd maybe be able to get one at a store, because of Mandriva and SuSE and so forth being super popular there.

    Wah.
    What do you care about linux being preloaded anyway?  You're just going to have to patch and/or update it as soon as you get it.Plus, knowing you, you'd complain because it was the wrong version of linux.
    Beer28 wrote:

    When Linus said that a monopoly stiffles innovation, he's not kidding. Maybe some of you are too young to remember when PC consumers had a large selection to choose from as far as hardware and software. Those were good times.
    And I lived them and I'd be willing to bet that time has softened his and your memory on how annoying they were.  BTW, the Amiga's that you seem so enamored with were virus ridden.  Mostly because of the pirated software movement that eventually turned into FOSS.
    Beer28 wrote:

    MS was like the borg, and unfortunately, they assimilated nearly all home PC users for years. Now that Linux has caught up and surpassed Windows on many points, that will begin to decline. I can't wait for the open marketplace of old to reappear and for us to be able to try different systems again, and appreciate them for their unique qualities. I think that in 10 years linux will be the dominant enterprise and desktop OS, but that it will never suffocate the market place like Microsoft did, because there is no reason for it to do so.

    ooooooh, MS was like the borg.  That was a slightly amusing allegory when it came out 10 years ago but it's getting a little old.  The marketplace was going to be dominated by someone and if that someone had been Apple or Amiga or Atari or Commodore, I'd be singing their praises at this point.  The issue isn't who won, it's that somebody won and now we don't have to worry about hardware and software compatability every time we purchase something.And let's be clear here, MS's practices didn't 'assimilate' home PC users, they 'competed' using some questionable tactics.  Some were legal, some weren't, but they won and in the process paid out more in fines than your whole family will make in their lifetime.  Times 100.  Linus isn't a god, he's a pussoir.  He doesn't have to take responsibility for his operating system even while he's taking the credit for it's existence.  He can throw out witty comments about how evil MS is without ever having created a company of that size nor having ever managed one.  He avoids any culpability by letting the 'masses' do the work.  You'd better hope that if/when Linux is accepted by more companies that it holds up.  Cuz if it doesn't and there is nobody to sue-back-to-the-stone-age, companies will just stop using it.
    Beer28 wrote:
    Essentially, I agree 100% with what Linus said in the interview.
    Essentially, you need to get out more.

  • MisterDonut

    Beer28 wrote:
    ScanIAm wrote: Cuz if it doesn't and there is nobody to sue-back-to-the-stone-age, companies will just stop using it.


    Where's micrsosoft's accountability? Their software isn't fit for any purpose, it says so right in their EULA. You can't sue them if things go wrong. Their fancy lawyers have made sure of that.



    I don't remember seeing that it isn't "fit for any purpose.." Have to re-check the EULA on that one. (rolls eyes)

    You can't sue a lot of FOSS developers of their software as well. Doesn't really mean much, Beer. Try again.



  • Cider

    "IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES, INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. "


    Can you guess which license that's from?

  • sbc

    Isn't all software provided AS-IS, or with no warranty? If you lose data because of a bug in SQL Server or Oracle, is anyone liable?

  • Cider

    sbc wrote:
    Isn't all software provided AS-IS, or with no warrenty? If you lose data because of a bug in SQL Server or Oracle, is anyone liable?


    Yes, of course.  That was kind of my point in putting up a section of the GPL.

    I don't think I've ever seen a EULA that DOESN'T have that in it.

    The silliest thing is, of course, let's imagine the US Government banned that clause.  Lots of pain for every software manufacturer in the world, it would kill Open Source stone cold dead.  Who'd want to release a product for free if all they ever going to get back from it is a few thanks and a whole load of lawsuits.

  • Cider

    "fitness for a PARTICULAR purpose" is very different to "fitness for any purpose".

    To take your shaver example, it means you can't sue Phillips if you read on the shaver's website it has "comforting vibrations" and so decided that meant it was a good idea to shove the cordless shaver up yer backside.

  • Manip

    Linux would take more desktop share if it didn't suck so bad... But I agree with Linus, Linux will catch up when all these old UNIX geeks die off and are replaced by people that understand what usability means.

  • ScanIAm

    Beer28 wrote:

    ScanIAm wrote: Cuz if it doesn't and there is nobody to sue-back-to-the-stone-age, companies will just stop using it.

    I wouldn't have even brought it up had it not been for this comment.



    Do you honestly think that large companies run down to the local Computerz-R-Us and buy all of their software in shrinkwrapped boxes?

    It's called nogotiating a contract and/or license agreement.  Please step back from your home-user point of view and think about how business works.  If the liability doesn't lie with Microsoft, then it lies with the consultants.  No major corporation is going to buy something under the idea that there is no promise that it works and if it doesn't work, too bad.

    That EULA may fly for a mom-and-pop shop, but if Toyota buys 50,000 Office licenses, you can be sure that if they dont' work, MSFT is buying them back.

  • Cider

    Beer28 wrote:
    Cider wrote:

    "fitness for a PARTICULAR purpose" is very different to "fitness for any purpose".


    It's not different, it means the same exact thing. I have reading comprehension skillz!




    Erm, "fitness for a particular purpose" is a well known legal phrase.  Try googling for it...

  • AndyC

    Beer28 wrote:


    I didn't say it wasn't a well known legal phrase, I said it means the same thing as not being fit for any purpose.


    It doesn't to lawyers. And that's what counts.

  • MisterDonut

    Beer28 wrote:


    I CAN'T AFFORD to pay for somebody's medical bills if they use and or misuse my software and happen to get hurt or they lose a day of business due to a crash. I can't do that. I give the software away for free. Microsoft has BILLIONS of dollars. They can afford to compensate people for their own mistakes. They sell the software and thus they should provide a warantee with protection as such that you have to pay for it.



    Ah, I get it, Because you're poor,  you can't be held responsible for your actions?

  • MisterDonut

    Beer28 wrote:
    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/home/eula.mspx

    of fitness for a particular purpose,



    There is a difference between fit for a particular purpose, and fit for any purpose, as memory recalls..
     
    I think you specified *any* purpose. I think it's fit for mine.. Your mileage may vary. Smiley


  • JKelley

    Some of the attitudes being expressed here are rather sickening.  As someone who's software gets used in places like turbine blade manufacturing plants, or medical equipment manufacturing sites, you can be damn sure that liability is a huge issue.  Any engineer not willing to stand behind their work shouldn't be an engineer.  Whether you sell software to someone or give it to them for free, the person receiving the software expects it to work.  When their support call is greeted with the "at least you didn't pay for it" line, I'm sure they'll be rushing back to you to get more of your work.  Do us all a favor and stop releasing code to the public until you learn what it means to be held accountable for your output.

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