Coffeehouse Thread

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Windows forms

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  • User profile image
    spiderLab

    Hi I wish to get into progamming windows desktop applications.

    Which language and tools do you suggest I staring out with?
    I can't afford Visual Studio or Borland tools at the moment, so if there are any cheap or free tools that are solid for beginner I would love to hear about them.

    Any tips/URLs for beginners?

    I have 5 years background with web applications (PHP, MySQL, HTML,XML CSS, JavaScript)

    Thanks for advices and sugestions

    Spider

  • User profile image
    Knute

    Do whatever you have to, to buy the IDE. Your life will be much easier, plus employers look for IDE experience because that is what you will be using in a production enviro.

    I'm sorry but hearing someone say they can't afford it tells me they don't really want to commit to doing it. Thats like someone saying they want to race cars, but they don't want to buy a car. You got to pay to play. Just my .02

    ~ Knute

  • User profile image
    Knute

    prog_dotnet wrote:
    I am not sure how the channel9 policy is on this,but anyway, its not the most secret trick out there..
    U will find vs.net on some of the torrent sites.

    best regards..

    jan erik



    Why don't you just tell him to throw a brick through the window of his local computer store and lift a copy, because downloading and using bootlegged copies of Visual Studio is stealing.

    I think it's trememdously irresponsible to even suggest that someone do this.

    Shame on you,

    ~ Knute

  • User profile image
    prog_dotnet

    Hey Thomas,

    Book wise, I would recomend buying eighter deitel how to program vb.net or how to program c#.
     

    http://www.deitel.com/books/index.html

    u can get some nicly used copys from $50 and up..

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/0130293636//103-2163668-1745441?condition=all

    U could also post your questions at eigheter hardware.no, itpro.no or nnug.no(norwegian .net user group)

    best regards..

    jan erik

  • User profile image
    prog_dotnet

    better now...

  • User profile image
    themaffeo

    prog_dotnet wrote:
    I am not sure how the channel9 policy is on this,but anyway, its not the most secret trick out there..
    U will find vs.net on some of the torrent sites.



    I'm going to go out on a limb and say MSFT would not support people suggesting thier products be stolen.

    In fact, to suggest pirating microsoft software on a microsoft website, for developers no less, is rather brazen.

    But I digress..

    spiderLab,
     

    The fact of the matter is that you want to be a programmer.  Any knowledge you gain from using the IDE will eventually be put towards a future job, i.e. you will reap financial benefit.  Buy it.  There have already been numerous threads here about how to obtaing a legal copy for a very low cost. (gradware.com, ebay, webMatrix)

    Even better yet - download the SDK and dont use the IDE at first.  It will give you a better understanding of the framework and let you get down and dirty with the code. (You'll end up knowing it better than if you had just used the IDE too).

    The fact is, there are so many ways to get VS.net, or a single language box (c#,vb.net) that are so incredibly cheap, there is no reason to pirate anything.  




  • User profile image
    gregoryw

    If you download the .Net Framework then you'll be provided with some command-line compilers for C# and VB.net. Whilst it's definately easier to learn from inside an IDE, the advantage of the command-line compilers is that you get them for free!

    MSDN's website has lots of examples:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/

    There are also numerous other developer communities you can look at for code:

    http://www.gotdotnet.com/
    http://www.codeproject.com/
    http://www.csharphelp.com/

  • User profile image
    prog_dotnet

    First; its not illegal in europe to download from p2p networks. Even if it was, why the hell this bigatry.

    We all download content from the net that are in some ways protected by copyrights. Jpeg are patented, and one are supposed to pay a fee for using the file extention.
    Not to mention that 70 % of the network bandwith in europe are contributed by p2p traffic.

    The fight against software piracy are a technological and political issue, not an moral one.
     

    Second: the .net wave are not spreading as fast as Microsoft anticipated or at least hoped. Some weeks ago there were a posting from a user asking for uni courses that teach .net.

    Its like a needle in a highstack. .Net are important to those who already are into the microsoft scene, but NOT for the maiority of people.

    The primary IDE shoud be free to use for everyone.

    The IDE should also be more extendable with subscription services for enterprise development. That way, "normal" uses, students and hobby coders, could pick from the top shelf and increase their .net skills as needed. .

    If you want to preach .NET let people, rich and poor,  use the technology, not work against them.
     

     

  • User profile image
    jcfiala

    Well, if you're just starting out, I'd suggest VB.NET.  If you go here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/atthemovies/ and watch some movies about VB.NET, they'll give you a legal copy for free.

    John Fiala
    jcfiala523-at-hotmail.com
    http://www.livejournal.com/users/fiala_tech/

  • User profile image
    themaffeo

    prog_dotnet wrote:

    First; its not illegal in europe to download from p2p networks.



    Maybe not to download, but the issue is the EULA you MUST sign to install.  I think that is uphelp by EU courts

    prog_dotnet wrote:

    We all download content from the net that are in some ways protected by copyrights.


    We all speed too. The everyone else does it excuse dosn't work in court.

    prog_dotnet wrote:


    The fight against software piracy are a technological and political issue, not an moral one.

    No: Polictical, technological AND moral
    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=moral


    prog_dotnet wrote:


    Second: the .net wave are not spreading as fast as Microsoft anticipated or at least hoped. Some weeks ago there were a posting from a user asking for uni courses that teach .net.

    Its like a needle in a highstack. .Net are important to those who already are into the microsoft scene, but NOT for the maiority of people.


    Not sure why that means people should download stuff for free, but ok.

    prog_dotnet wrote:

    The primary IDE shoud be free to use for everyone.

    The IDE should also be more extendable with subscription services for enterprise development.



    I think Ferarri engines should be should be free too.  You should just pay for the doors and decals.

    prog_dotnet wrote:

    That way, "normal" uses, students and hobby coders, could pick from the top shelf and increase their .net skills as needed. .


    What if your "normal" users wanted access to the 'subcription features', would it be all right to steal them? 

    prog_dotnet wrote:

    If you want to preach .NET let people, rich and poor,  use the technology, not work against them.



    The poorest shmuck in the world can get all the tools they need to develop on the .net platform provided they have an internet connection and a pc.  Let us not forget that VS.net is a TOOL, desinged to make things EASIER.  It is NOT a neciessity, it is a convienience.


    Look, I'm not going to lie and pretend I've never had a slightly shacky copy of software on my computer.  I dont think anyone here is going to say that.  However, I do strive to own and operate only legal copies of everything I use. Heck, I've even been trying to be a good boy and use BuyMusic.com for my my music downloads (the DRM is still rather draconian IMO, but thats a different story)

    I don't mean to be hypocritical when I admonish people to pay for software.  I just firmly believe that if at all possible, you should attempt to pay for what you use, especially if it is something you plan to make money off of.

    if spider is a 10 year old who wants to play around, I don't think msft is going to rail his butt for torrenting VS.net.  However, his post said he had 5 years of experience - that sounds like a developer to me.  Developers should pay. No if's, and's or but's.

     

  • User profile image
    Knute

    themaffeo wrote:

    if spider is a 10 year old who wants to play around, I don't think msft is going to rail his butt for torrenting VS.net.  However, his post said he had 5 years of experience - that sounds like a developer to me.  Developers should pay. No if's, and's or but's.


    The people who download bootlegged copies are the same people that buy a college degree from someone on the internet without actually going to college.

    Look if you are learning to code then eventually you will want to "Sell" your product. What does it say when you don't want to pay for the tools to make that product. You have to spend money to make money. If you don't want to pay, do things the hard and legal way from the command line.

    ~ Knute


  • User profile image
    spiderLab

    He he, What I asked for was tips for how to start with programming for the windows enviroment especially window forms applications.

    I would love to pay for IDEs etc. but as a single person I can't afford enterprise versions (which I understand you need for developing commercial apps)

    I think this is a sad fact, because it is alot of talented developers (I bet there is more talented wpeople out there which are on the outside than there are on the inside) who never gets to develop their talent and so on because they can't afford to buy the enviroment they need to get started.

    THIS IS DISCRIMIATION IN A WAY!

    Our customers suffers from this.
    They need the best and absolutly the best developers, They invest their cash into the projects, right?

    Maybe I expressed myself in a wrong way, I guess since I have hands on PHP, MySQL and the open source stuff, I automaticly i associated with a freeloader Smiley And therefore this litle discussion got out of context.

    But what I wanted to know is there any shortcuts for me to get into Windows application development?

    Spider

  • User profile image
    yag

    As someone noted above, go to VB At the Movies and watch 5 movies, then rate them. You'll get a free copy of VB Standard - which should be enough to get you going...

    yag

  • User profile image
    spiderLab

    But I live outside US/Canada ;(

    Can anyone watch them for me, I'll email you my address so you can ship my copy Smiley

    I've tried SharpDevelop, but the designer crashes to often.

    If I've understood it correctly I can not develop commercial applications with the standard versions, right?

    Hey CH9 folks,
    Why not have a litle competition on this site for members where we can win prices like a version of VB.net etc.

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