Coffeehouse Thread

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  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    @Sven Groot: I've never found complete examples to problems I faced at my education, only parts of a solution.

    Really? You must not have looked very hard. Even back when I went to high school (90s) it was possible to find complete book reports for just about any book online.

    And some of the programming courses at my University used the same assignments every year. Finding last year's answers was usually trivial.

    Then there's the fact that nearly all programming assignments allowed you to work in pairs. This usually meant that one person did the work for one class, and the other for another class. This means that there's one subject that each of the two never actually did assignments for, and thus wasn't tested in.

    If two students come up with the same Haiku, they can share credit,..

    And what if they both claim to have come up with it independently? You have to give them both full credit, otherwise you're punishing them for cheating, which you want to explicitly allow so you can't punish them for it.

  • User profile image
    cheong

    @Maddus Mattus:On the other hand, FYP gives you better understand on what the student should be able to solve, only that on a group project it's difficult to tell who did the beefy parts.

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    cheong

    @Sven Groot:

    , Sven Groot wrote

    How can I, as the grader, tell whether this is a program they wrote or copied from someone else. The only means of detection available to me are the blatant case where multiple people hand in the exact same program, or if I recognize a particular solution from somewhere. Another hint can be that the work is way above the student's usual level (which is not an immediate indication of cheating, but does warrant further investigation).

    This isn't hypothetical, by the way. I have graded papers, programming assignments and exams during my time as a Student Assistant at Leiden University.

    That's why we always had demonestration session before grading on FYP. The students in the group tell the lecturer which part did they contributed in, and the lecturer ask key questions that "people who done that part should know". If the student don't know the answer, either he/she explain what "other method" they used to achieve that result, or cheating is assumed.

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  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    , Sven Groot wrote

    Really? You must not have looked very hard. Even back when I went to high school (90s) it was possible to find complete book reports for just about any book online.

    I've never done a book report, we we're made to tell the story in the book face to face or infront of class.

    But I can imagine a teacher knows these type of sites, one or two google searches would reveal if the report is copied or not.

    And still, what if the student copied it? What's the harm to the teacher? None,. The student only hurts himself with it.

    And some of the programming courses at my University used the same assignments every year. Finding last year's answers was usually trivial.

    Then the test makers are lazy, maybe that counts as a form of teacher cheating.

    Then there's the fact that nearly all programming assignments allowed you to work in pairs. This usually meant that one person did the work for one class, and the other for another class. This means that there's one subject that each of the two never actually did assignments for, and thus wasn't tested in.

    If they all hand in the same program, they can share credit.

    I've done the assignments you talk about and I did not experience quite what you describe.

    We've helped each other understand the assignment and the solution. Sure, there were students who piggy backed on some of the others, but in other courses it was exactly reversed. We all grew from each others experience. I've done projects where I did little, and I've done projects where I did nearly all. But learned from them all.

    And what if they both claim to have come up with it independently? You have to give them both full credit, otherwise you're punishing them for cheating, which you want to explicitly allow so you can't punish them for it.

    I'm not punishing at all, I'm giving credit to each individual piece of work. If two students come up with the same solution, they can share the credit.

    Back to my original point I was trying to make;

    Cheating mostly hurts the cheator

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    Cheating mostly hurts the cheator

    Yes, and of course everyone of school age is wise enough to know that already (or believe it when told). Who cares if people who could otherwise have had promising careers screw themselves over because no one cared enough to prevent them?

    Who cares if half the people get out of school knowing absolutely nothing because they could just cheat the whole way.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @Sven Groot:

    Mentality of students is a different problem.

    It a young age when, in Holland at least, you are forced to go to school, the teacher is the customer and the student the producerer. The intent to cheat is there, because the student may not want to be there and cheat his way out.

    When at a later age you will see the mentality change, the students become the customer and the teacher the producer. Now the student actually wants to learn, if he wants to cheat, then it mostly hurts himself.

    When you leave school with your degree and you know nothing, the businesses will start to value the degree less. So the students and the school has the incentive to make sure when they hand out their degree's, the student actually know what he is talking about.

    So, design tests that have a smalelr chance of being cheat at and help your fellow students become the best students they possibly can.

    I like how the Dutch DMV solved it. Multiple choice, all at the same time, limited time per question. No chance in hell you can cheat on those.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    @Sven Groot:

    So, design tests that have a smalelr chance of being cheat at and help your fellow students become the best students they possibly can.

    Sure, I agree with that, but that's easier said than done. Especially when you consider that elementary and high schools are often vastly understaffed (and the teachers are underpaid), and that at higher levels of education the teachers are often researchers who only teach because they have to, not because they want to.

    I like how the Dutch DMV solved it. Multiple choice, all at the same time, limited time per question. No chance in hell you can cheat on those.

    That's not a good example, because this only tests your ability to memorize (it's not as bad as some other multiple choice tests, because at least you're given real scenarios and asked to interpret them based on traffic regulations, rather than just regurgitate the rules). It's possibly the method of testing that least allows the students to use their creativity.

    Plus, weren't you arguing that we should allow cheating because that's how the real world works? Why have you suddenly shifted to designing tests that prevent teaching?

    (This is also an example of why "you can look stuff up in the real world" doesn't always apply, because you can't exactly Google road signs while you're driving)

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @Sven Groot: No one said being a teacher is easy, I think they are underpaid and undervalued (same thing). I have massive respect for all coaches and teachers out there.

    The DMV is a good example because there is no interpretation to traffic regulations. If you come from the right, you have right of way. You need to memorize that. And that way of testing is excellent.

    The DMV test was an example of a test you cant cheat at. So you wouldnt need to prevent it. Sure you can look over your shoulder at the other guy, but because of the time constraint you would run behind hoplessly (seen it happen).

    Let me adjust my point then to something we can agree on, I often formulate my opinion a bit to harsh, I'm working on that;

    Instead of trying to prevent cheating, put that energy into designing tests so that is in the students best interest to learn and master the skill being tested.

    A written exam is easy to make and grade, it's also easy to cheat at.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    I've never done a book report, we we're made to tell the story in the book face to face or infront of class.

    Examining someone face-to-face is vastly more expensive than giving them a written paper to do.

    But I can imagine a teacher knows these type of sites, one or two google searches would reveal if the report is copied or not.

    But you're explicitly allowing cheating because "it's more like the real world".

    If you have to implement a Binary Sort, does your boss punish you for copying a working sample from StackOverflow? Then why should an examiner (under your system)?

    And still, what if the student copied it? What's the harm to the teacher? None,. The student only hurts himself with it.

    Having a 1st class degree in Computer Science will benefit the cheater more than the lack of knowledge of how to build a LALR table will damage his career.

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