Coffeehouse Thread

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Broken ARM for Windows 8?

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  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    No desktop on ARM? I know it's just speculation but it makes sense considering devs would have to recompile for ARM to get their apps on that platform anyway. Chances are they'd run poorly as well.

    The WinRT/Metro noose is tightening...

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • TomboRombo

    I think Intel put some heavy hands on Microsoft to keep Intel exclusive on the desktop.   I am ok with this story but now I want a WinRT for the desktop which dumps .NET libraries and goes right to the core.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @TomboRombo:

    The only problem I have with that is there's no WinRT for Windows 7.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • SteveRichter

    @DeathByVisualStudio:

    I think the prohibition on desktop apps has to do with security. Desktop apps are too prone to viruses.

     

  • W3bbo

    My friends, I see the future:

    Low-end desktops (y'know: for offices and stuff) will now simply be monitors, which a very slim form-factor computer unit tucked in the back. This has been done before, but in proprietary form-factors (by Dell, HP, etc) - but if this is standardised around ARM then they can be made even smaller, lighter, and energy efficient. The biggest component in a computer will no-longer be the CPU heatsink or the motherboard, but the hard-drive.

    Besides, it's looking like Apple may even adopt ARM for its MacBooks in the coming years (think of the battery life!) - if they do this, then the rest of the industry will surely follow suit.

  • CKurt

    I'm okay with this story too, it would be to confusing for regular consumer to know why the new windows won't run there old apps (they don't know they bought an ARM cpu, they just bought a pc).

    But i really really really hope: They don't call that version Windows! Because it is not, windows has the name to be compatible and run on every computer and to have a desktop. People won't understan why the "Games for Windows" games they gave don't work on this windows... I'd hate to be the person telling them afterwords.

  • DCMonkey

    It seems like the story has changed back to "know one knows WTF is going on" as Thurrot (the original source of Foley's original story) has heard from another "reliable source" that the desktop will still be in the ARM version.

    I'd be fine with a Metro-only ARM version for "devices" if it also meant that the Metro environment were sequestered to a Media Center like app on the desktop version so I could just not run it.

  • figuerres

    Just remember this untill we have facts:

    WIndows NT used to be compiled for multiple CPU types, Mips, Alpha and intell (i am not sure about others). Microsoft used to sell the C / C++ compilers to support this.

    so technichally I see no reason why they could not do a full build for each cpu if they want to.

     

    the real question is will they , not can they.

  • W3bbo

    , figuerres wrote

    Just remember this untill we have facts:

    WIndows NT used to be compiled for multiple CPU types, Mips, Alpha and intell (i am not sure about others). Microsoft used to sell the C / C++ compilers to support this.

    After a few minutes' research, here:

    NT 3.1 = IA-32 (x86), MIPS, and Alpha
    NT 3.5 = IA-32, MIPS, and Alpha
    NT 3.51 = IA-32, MIPS, Alpha, and PowerPC
    NT 4.0 = IA-32, MIPS, Alpha, and PowerPC
    NT 5.0 = IA-32, IA-64 (Itanium)
    NT 5.1 = IA-32, IA-64
    NT 5.2 = IA-32, IA-64, AMD64 (x64)
    NT 6.0 = IA-32, IA-64, AMD64
    NT 6.1 = IA-32, IA-64, AMD64. (With IA-32 support removed in Server 2008 R2)
    NT 6.2 = IA-32, AMD64, ARM (No word on IA-64 support in Server 8).

    So as you can see, the NT kernel has always been available for than one platform (it's just that IA-32 is the predominant one that's always been available).

    I guess that Windows 8 is available in IA-32 for the sake of backwards compatibility (no 16-bit support in AMD64 Windows) and because it's touted as being compatible with computers that run Windows Vista, though I do expect Windows 9 to ditch 32-bit support because no new machine in the past couple of years comes lacking 64-bit processors and people want more than 3GB of RAM).

  • elmer

    I see the issue as simply one of desktop applications.

    It's one thing to provide the O/S for multiple hardware platforms, it's an entirely different matter to convince developers to port their existing apps.

    This was the problem with MIPS and ALPHA support in the past, nobody was interested in porting their x86 apps.

    IMHO, traditional desktop hardware for business is history, and will be usurped by the use of improved RDP (or whatever) terminal services, so that desktop apps can continue to run in their x86 (etc) environment (i.e. Servers) while allowing the use of ARM and Metro.

  • CKurt

    @elmer: That brings up a good point.

    An ARM/Metro only tablet can be used to access any old desktop app because there is a metro remote desktop app (which is a suprisingly good app)

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , elmer wrote

    *snip*

    IMHO, traditional desktop hardware for business is history, and will be usurped by the use of improved RDP (or whatever) terminal services, so that desktop apps can continue to run in their x86 (etc) environment (i.e. Servers) while allowing the use of ARM and Metro.

    Awesome! So when I buy and Windows 8 ARM tablet I'll also buy a PC (or server) to run the desktop stuff from. This sure sounds like the iPad/iPhone launches -- tied to the PC or MAC. Copy...Paste...repeat.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • figuerres

    , CKurt wrote

    @elmer: That brings up a good point.

    An ARM/Metro only tablet can be used to access any old desktop app because there is a metro remote desktop app (which is a suprisingly good app)

     

    question that will come up:

    the iPad can use RDP apps to do the access to desktops also. why buy a windows 8 tablet if the iPad does the same stuff and has more apps ?

    i am not saying that win 8 will not have apps etc...  I am asking how will Microsoft and the PC OEM's make a windows 8 tablet something that mass numbers of consumers will want to buy ?

    this is a very very important question for us as developers ....  casue if win 8 is *NOT* able to get critical mass then we will not be developing for it.  I am already getting asked about developing for the iPad at work and we have done windows apps for years now.

    Hello Balmer, Hello Guthere, Hello Sinofsky time to wake up and meet the real world...

  • magicalclick

    Inornically I am ok with WP Tablet, but, I am not ok with Metro only Tablet. Perplexed I will stay with PC/Notebook and WP Cell Phone, no tablet for now. Or I will sadly get an iPad if Win8 Tablet failed and no WP Tablet I can buy.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • cbae

    ARM shmarm. x86 processors are becoming more and more energy efficient, while ARM processors are becoming more and more power hungry. When they meet in the middle, the platform that has the most software support will win.

  • evildictait​or

    , W3bbo wrote

    NT 6.2 = IA-32, AMD64, ARM (No word on IA-64 support in Server 8).

    There isn't going to be support for IA64. (http://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-server-itanium-nehalem-xeon-windows-server-2008-r2,10075.html)

    , DeathByVisualStudio wrote

    No desktop on ARM? ... it's just speculation

    And let's just remind everybody that this is, in fact, just speculation.

  • Dovella

    Why you want X86 app for W8  tab ARM ?

    X86 app is not finger friendly, is not for tablet.

    Im very happy to restart.

  • blowdart

    , Dovella wrote

    Why you want X86 app for W8  tab ARM ?

    X86 app is not finger friendly, is not for tablet.

    Im very happy to restart.

    How does that make sense? The finger friendliness of an app has nothing to do with the chipset it runs on.

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