Coffeehouse Thread

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Developer story for Win8/WP8

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  • bondsbw

    , cheong wrote

    @bondsbw: I mean people expects you'll be able to upgrade to the "next version" nowadays.

    Phones with "latest current" version of OS preloaded (such as Lumia 900) should be able to upgrade to it's next version.

    Yes, and in my example I showed how devices preloaded with the "latest current" version of iOS, which at the time was iOS 4, were unable to get some of the major features of the "next version", iOS 5.

    Apple gives the same name/version to two different operating systems.  One includes Siri, one does not.

    Would it have made you happier if Microsoft said "Everyone gets WP8!  Except without true multitasking and new app support."  Because that's exactly what Apple did when it said the first two iPhones wouldn't get multitasking.

    But I can see the confusion... Apple hasn't announced any iOS 6 features that are incompatible with the iPhone 4S.  That's just because they haven't announced the iPhone 5.  If they stay true-to-form, they will introduce the new iPhone in September and it will include an iOS 6 with more features that are not compatible with the iPhone 4S.  Just wait and see.

  • philjay

    @AndyC: How much does this subset include? Is there ability to use and write WinRT components from C++ and .Net(Which would be quite essential for some apps)?

  • elmer

    I suspect that MS have just killed Nokia sales.

  • wkempf

    , philjay wrote

    @AndyC: How much does this subset include? Is there ability to use and write WinRT components from C++ and .Net(Which would be quite essential for some apps)?

    Unfortunately, there's not enough details yet to answer that. There was mention of mixing native and .NET in one app. However, the slides were very careful to never put C++ and Xaml in the same sentence. I thought I understood the message yesterday, but the more I've thought about it and dug into what was said, the more I realize I don't know anymore today then I did last week. It's actually kind of frustrating.

  • contextfree`

    My guess: non-UI stuff like networking will have the same WinRT APIs as Windows 8. UI-related stuff will be the same as Windows Phone 7.x. The UI platform will still be Silverlight (though not called that anymore), not a port or adaptation of WinRT Windows.UI.Xaml. There will be no C++ UI platform (other than rolling your own on top of DirectX).  You will be able to share non-UI code between Windows 8 and WP8 apps, but the UI code and XAML will need to be different (because the UI platforms themselves are different).

  • aL3891

    @contextfree`:

    hm not so sure about that.. i think a great deal will actually be the same, they've mentioned running the full clr so there is unlikely to be any silverlight left..

    Given how much windows 8 is likely going to be in wp8, it seems the winRT core libraries are going to be very likely.. and after all, the xaml implementation in win8 is actually native code..

    But so then why didnt they mention winRT? who knows.. microsoft is known for their poor marketing strategies and event that create more confusion that awnsers. they might have considered this event to have a non technical audience, or the actual details are not really locked down..

    it seems they did everything to indicate winRT except actually saying it..

  • contextfree`

    , bondsbw wrote

    *snip*

    Yes, and in my example I showed how devices preloaded with the "latest current" version of iOS, which at the time was iOS 4, were unable to get some of the major features of the "next version", iOS 5.

    Apple gives the same name/version to two different operating systems.  One includes Siri, one does not.

    Would it have made you happier if Microsoft said "Everyone gets WP8!  Except without true multitasking and new app support."  Because that's exactly what Apple did when it said the first two iPhones wouldn't get multitasking.

    But I can see the confusion... Apple hasn't announced any iOS 6 features that are incompatible with the iPhone 4S.  That's just because they haven't announced the iPhone 5.  If they stay true-to-form, they will introduce the new iPhone in September and it will include an iOS 6 with more features that are not compatible with the iPhone 4S.  Just wait and see.

    I think there's an enormous difference between "you get everything but a few features" and "you only get a few features", which is what WP7.8 is so far.

  • BitFlipper

    Given the drastic difference between WP7 and WP8, personally I can give them a pass for not making current devices upgradable. We are really gaining a lot of good and powerful features with WP8 compared to WP7.

    I think the biggest problem though is not that current WP devices can't get upgraded to WP8, but that future apps will no longer be compatible with WP7.8 devices. Although I guess from a dev point of view it will be a while before there are more WP8 devices than WP7.8 devices. But it could very well be that one year from now, very few new apps will work with current gen devices.

  • AndyC

    @contextfree`: Rolling out a completely new OS for current WP7 devices would also have required all the carriers to write a whole new series of drivers and integration components for devices that haven't exactly sold as well as predicted, aren't going to still be sold when WP8 devices are available and that they've so far shown reluctance to even do minor updates for.

    It just wasn't ever likely. Thankfully one of the big benefits of NT over CE is that it doesn't require drivers to be baked into the kernel quite so deeply, so the carriers will largely be out of the picture once devices are released and the rather more predictable Windows Update infrastructure can take care of making sure every update gets out to everyone asap.

    It's going to impact the sales of WP7 devices for a while, but the hit is probably worth it for the few months between now and release. Assuming, of course, that they can get some real build up on this release and get some major demand for the new devices at launch. That's going to depend largely on having a lot more of the current major name apps (especially the ones notably missing from WP7) available at launch as well as some of the 'killer' games and apps that they're predicting WP8 will allow.

  • aL3891

    @AndyC:

    Not to mention most people dont go watching microsoft press events Smiley seriously, this is no diffrent than the couple of months between an apple announcement and the actual release..

    for the avare joe who dont drop hundreds of bucks on launch day for every new phone, this means nothing.. probably carriers and phone vendors will drop prices on current WP devices [again, just as they do when the next gen of any device is announced] and with 7.8, normal people will consider their wp phones to be pretty much on par with wp8.. not to mention nokia are uppdating their wp7   apps as well.

    As other have said already, i think microsoft is beeing honest with the 7.8 update. they could just as well have called that update "windows 8" and just claimed the new hardware enables some more features..

  • cheong

    @BitFlipper: Yup. Especially when you take "people getting new phone bonded with 24 months contract to get lower price" into consideration, I'd expect people to hold back even when Lumia 900 itself is a good phone.

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  • bondsbw

    , BitFlipper wrote

    ...I think the biggest problem though is ... that future apps will no longer be compatible with WP7.8 devices.

    To finish my comparison to Apple above, if I recall, new apps for iOS 4 included multitasking support and were no longer compatible with older devices that didn't support iOS 4.

    But, I won't let Microsoft off the hook that easily.  Apple also gave me a $100 gift certificate after they lowered the price of the original iPhone by $200 after just a few months.  They pissed off their closest user base.  Likewise, Microsoft and Nokia need to team up to give something back to the Lumia 900 community... say, an earlier upgrade to a WP8 device, with a discount.

  • MasterPi

    , bondsbw wrote

    Likewise, Microsoft and Nokia need to team up to give something back to the Lumia 900 community... say, an earlier upgrade to a WP8 device, with a discount.

    +1 They should probably give a rebate to those who want to upgrade before the 24 months are up. Who knows...maybe there is already one in the works and they just haven't announced it yet.

  • JeremyJ

    @bondsbw: When I bought my Lumia 900, Nokia gave me a $100 rebate as well.  I basically got the phone for free.

    I think far too many of us think that our perspective is the way the general population thinks about technology.  If I gave my mom or girlfriend (she actually has a Focus) a phone they would use it everyday without a second thought to upgrades.  They would probably only upgrade the software to get the message to stop popping up.  Actually my girlfriend only knows about future updates because I tell her.  The look on her face is usually "whatever, as long as my phone works".  In their minds, as long as the phone keeps working then they are happy.  If it breaks then they buy a new one.  Tech enthusiast may be vocal but they make up a very small percentage of the population.

    During the Summit they said that even after WP8 comes out you can still target your apps to WP7.  I think most people would target WP7 unless they are games that are written with native code.  By the time WP8 takes off most people will be due for an upgrade anyway.  They said that secure NFC won't be available untill next year and I plan on waiting for that to be widely available.

    I thought this was a decent article talking about it:

    http://winsource.com/2012/06/21/current-windows-phone-users-need-to-stop-complaining/

  • cheong

    [I recall this post - not notice WP7.8 will have Metro support.]

    EDIT: Btw, from Nokia forum, seems the release of WP7.8 still cannot address the Lumia 900 users' concerns.

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