Coffeehouse Thread

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  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/downloads/personalize/gadgets

    Because we want to focus on the exciting possibilities of the newest version of Windows, the Windows website no longer hosts the gadget gallery.

    Gadgets installed from untrusted sources can harm your computer and can access your computer's files, show you objectionable content, or change their behavior at any time. If you are concerned about the safety of gadgets you've downloaded in the past, you can learn more about gadgets and steps you can take to protect your PC.

    OK?! Great, I understand that MS won't be updating the Gadget api etc., but shutting off the whole gadget-hosting site, even though W7 is still fully supported and all?

    Great way to inspire confidence in your products! Where's the guarantee that the Win 8 Store won't be closed two months before/after the Win 9 release, if W9 will have a different API/store mechanism?

    FList.Add("Desktop Gadget Users")

    Oh, and I know there is a "reason": http://www.zdnet.com/security-flaws-signal-early-death-of-windows-gadgets-7000000724/

    Microsoft is pulling the plug on the Windows Sidebar and Gadgets platform ahead of news that security vulnerabilities will be disclosed at this year's Black Hat conference.

    MS: As many of you are aware, Windows 8 will deprecate the Sidebar and Gadgets, and Gadget developers are already shifting their efforts to the online Windows Store. Meanwhile, we've discovered that some Vista and Win7 gadgets don't adhere to secure coding practices and should be regarded as causing risk to the systems on which they're run. With time running out for the Sidebar and Gadgets and with developers already moving on, we've chosen to deprecate the Windows Gadget Gallery effective immediately, and to provide a Fix it to help sysadmins disable Gadgets and the Sidebar across their enterprises.

    Oh, please! How about fixing the bugs? Windows 7 hasn't even reached extended support! By this logic, IE6 should have been forcefully deprecated years ago.

    I just don't buy it that the gadget rendering engine is this broken, that faulty HTML/CSS can create a completely unfixable vulnerability. And the timing.. just great! Win 8 is coming! Quick, get this patch to disable our in-house Metro apps competitor! Grab it now.

    This move epitomizes "Nu Microsoft".

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    Never used any gadgets, so I really couldn't care less.

    Do you use gadgets?

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    Never used any gadgets, so I really couldn't care less.

    Do you use gadgets?

    No. But I also don't use Facebook, and couldn't care less if they would close shop right now.

    But, so what? Just because I don't use something, let's kill it off? There were people who used them. Besides this, the big problem here:

    No reliability from MS whatsoever lately. At least you were able to count on the fact that if a product still is in its full support phase, then Microsoft would truly support it. This is out of the window now apparently.

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    I used gadgets for a few months when Vista came out. They were hidden by windows and didn't offer any functionality that I couldn't get elsewhere. They're all but replaced by the start screen in W8, so I'm not surprised they're shutting down the hosting.

    What does surprise me is MS shutting them down while Windows 7 is still in the general support phase. The security holes must be pretty gaping.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , spivonious wrote

    *snip*

    What does surprise me is MS shutting them down while Windows 7 is still in the general support phase. The security holes must be pretty gaping.

    That's pretty sad considering gadgets and sidebar were created after the "security is import" panic.

    "No Compromise" lalalalalalalala..... Smiley

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , spivonious wrote

    They're all but replaced by the start screen in W8, so I'm not surprised they're shutting down the hosting.

    As you may have noticed, neither is Win 8 a completely free upgrade, nor desirable for many. And far more important, this move, once again, dimishes trust. Where's the guarantee that the Win8 store will survive its mainstream support phase if Win9 will yet again have a different API/store?

    , spivonious wrote

    What does surprise me is MS shutting them down while Windows 7 is still in the general support phase.

    Yeah. Microsoft re-imagined, huh?

    , spivonious wrote

    The security holes must be pretty gaping.

    I don't buy this anymore. To many f*ck ups like this lately. And the timing and message is far to convenient (Gadgets are sucky and faulty, get Win 8 apps now!).

    Microsoft completely overdid it in the past 12 months. Maybe someone should check the water in Redmond.

  • User profile image
    kettch

    Haha, the original thread title still exists in the URL.

    Anyway, why all the rage? Other than my mom, I don't think I've ever seen gadgets beyond the default clock and slideshow thingy. She uses the weather gadget, but that's it. I tried a few monitoring gadgets for a while, but they were a big meh.

    Good for Microsoft for not wasting resources. Live tiles are much more useful than gadgets anyway.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , kettch wrote

    Good for Microsoft for not wasting resources. Live tiles are much more useful than gadgets anyway.

    "I don't use it, so who cares?" is not an argument.

    There's nothing good about this move. Very easily it could be next time a feature I do use. Or you.

    The implications are pretty extreme - Win 7 is fully supported, it's still in its mainstream support phase, yet the gadget feature got killed to promote Win 8! They killed it even before Win 8 is released!

    Seriously, once the pattern is set, what's the guarantee they won't do this with the Win 8 store once Win 9 comes out? They now kill features/services of products that are still in "first class" support. This surely inspires confidence..

  • User profile image
    kettch

    @wastingtimewithforums: Show me the telemetry that shows that a significant number of people have the sidebar on, or have something other than the default three gadgets.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , kettch wrote

    @wastingtimewithforums: Show me the telemetry that shows that a significant number of people have the sidebar on, or have something other than the default three gadgets.

    They don't say anything about the numbers of people:

    http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/downloads/personalize/gadgets
    Because we want to focus on the exciting possibilities of the newest version of Windows,  the Windows website no longer hosts the gadget gallery.

    So, in their own words: New Windows version, we don't care anymore. Where's the guarantee they won't pull this off with later versions? That's a BAD precedent. Stop advocating your own disadvantage.

    "Show me the telemetry" Oh no, Windows 7 was advertized having gadgets. Killing off the service after the support date is one thing, but killing during mainstream support? Win 7 isn't free you know, I paid for this feature, I expect this feature. THE END.

    What's next? Especially if they move more and more into the cloud? Once the pattern is set, what's holding them back continuing this practice? Will they kill "unused" but advertized and promised Office 365 features as well? I am sure people like you would even cheer. This highlights the danger of cloud solutions quite well.

    No way I will trust the continued functionality and availability of the Win 8 store. Good job building trust, Microsoft.

  • User profile image
    kettch

    @wastingtimewithforums: I still believe that the decision was based on the fact that nobody uses them. However, I have no evidence.

    Do you have evidence of what you are accusing Microsoft of? Show proof, and I will gladly recant.

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    , wastingtimewithforums wrote

    *snip*

    "Show me the telemetry" Oh no, Windows 7 was advertized having gadgets. 

    lol, wondering how long until it's taken down.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , kettch wrote

    @wastingtimewithforums: I still believe that the decision was based on the fact that nobody uses them. However, I have no evidence.

    Look, I don't care about how big or small the numbers are. How about this numbers: Win 7 is used by 600 million people. If only 2% used Gadgets, that's 12 Million users. And that's just Win7, Vista uses them too and still has more marketshare than ALL Mac OS X versions combined. Windows isn't free, it's a paid product with advertized features.

    Not even Microsoft is talking about numbers, their marketing speak hovers between "New Windows coming, use this instead!" and "Gadgets are a security risk!".

    Just what kind of unfixable bug have they unearthed in the gadget engine? They are just HTML and Javascript. And wouldn't it be sufficent in this case to just close the upload function, but keep the gallery alive?

    So, either:
    1. Microsoft is completely incapabable of fixing a HTML rendering bug, the only remedy is to disable the whole feature completely! What does this say about Microsoft?

    2. They want to promote Win 8.

    Case 1: They are utterly incompetent, case 2: They are getting way too greedy.

    My bets are on 2.

    AND THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE: Windows 7 is still in its first class support phase, yet features get cut to promote a successor WHICH IS NOT EVEN RELEASED! Again, what's the guarantee that you won't be greeted in 2015 with the following message if you click on the appstore in Windows 8:

    Because we want to focus on the exciting possibilities of the newest version of Windows, the Windows Store is no longer available.

    We found a security vulnerability in the Windows Store infrastructure, Metro apps can show you objectionable content, or change their behavior at any time. If you are concerned about the safety of apps you've downloaded in the past, you can learn more about apps (click here) and steps you can take to protect your PC.

    Some info for developers:

    You can now use your HTML6, XAML 3, CSS4, and JavaScript skills to build Mextro.NEXT style apps for Windows 9 Release Preview. To get started developing Metro.NEXT style apps, go to Windows 9 Dev Center and register for Windows Store 2.

    In many ways Gadgets were the predecessors of Metro apps. Both are (can be) programmed in HTML/CSS/JS and both are distributed through Microsoft's "cloud". Now we are seeing how reliable that construct is. "Nu Microsoft's" handling of this is a dire warning not to trust the cloud, and any Windows and Office functions that depend on Microsoft's servers (except for Windows Update I guess, I don't think they will be _this_ crazy).

    Oh, and if you're saying MS can be trusted with the Windows Store, since many more people will use it.. well, lots of people used the Start Button, it was THE Windows trademark of all, and lots of businesses (businesses, not script kiddies) used Small Business Server. All this doesn't stop Microsoft killing iconic functions, despite massive protests.

    Verdict: Windows 7 is still in first class support, yet this doesn't stop them killing highlighted features in the product. The Product lifecycle once meant something, but not now. It's not important how many users are affected, the implications this generates are heavy.

    Noveau Microsoft cannot be trusted.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    And 0% of 600 million is 0,..

    So we need to know the exact number, everybody can talk what if's,..

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    And 0% of 600 million is 0,..

    So we need to know the exact number, everybody can talk what if's,..

    I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE NUMBER. It's that simple! It's an advertized, highlighted feature, and Win 7 hasn't even reached extended support phase.

    If telemetry is Microsoft's god now, then Windows becomes a huge liability. "I need to have CEIP running all the time and click on this feature at least ten times daily or Microsoft will deactivate it tomorrow!"

    The more functions that depend on Microsoft's servers are in Windows, the more it will be a lottery - which feature will stay and which one get cut. And not in the next version, mind you, but in the actual "supported" one! Just incredible to think of that this practice apparently has fans.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @wastingtimewithforums: Great arguments dude. Microsoft is trying to push people into the "new Windows" one little cut at a time. It doesn't matter what the data says. They're leveraging a captive install base to force a particular agenda (sound familiar?). Rather than build something that draws customers to it they just use a stick and say "look a carrot!" even though it's not a carrot but rather a boring potato (W8 on a desktop PC).

    All just my opinion of course. Smiley

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    spivonious

    , fanbaby wrote

    *snip*

    lol, wondering how long until it's taken down.

    Notes

    • The Bing Traffic gadget is no longer available.

    • It is no longer possible to get more gadgets from the Windows website.

     

    This makes me think that it's not the Sidebar that's being disabled, it's just that you can't install any new gadgets.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    @spivonious: You do all realise that gadgets don't have to be installed from Microsoft's site right? Aside from a link in the UI, that site was only ever one way that gadgets were supposed to be promoted. Every website was going to carry their own gadgets and you could install them from wherever you like (and still can). Well if you can find anyone that actually bothered to write one.

    No feature of Windows 7 has been removed.

    As to "fixing" it, my understanding is that the problem is that gadgets are vulnerable to all the same kinds of privacy issues that webpages are, except their isn't really a way to provide the same kind of UI you get in a browser due to their essentially "chromeless" nature.

    And gadgets are not the precursor to Metro style applications, they're rather more akin to a Active Desktop widgets (killed off at the same time gadgets were introduced). Sometimes I think the only reason they ever surfaced in Vista at all was because the Sidebar had been pitched as such a pivotal part of the original Longhorn vision and, despite dropping WPF gadget applications (which might have been more capable, like Metro apps), there was some sort of desperate last-ditch attempt to retain at least some of it's functionality.

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