Coffeehouse Thread

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  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @evildictaitor: And they might not be better off, but at least they are FREE.

    Something that I've come into contact with recently.

    My wife suffured an injury and I want to take time off to care for her. My free days are all spent, since it is not allowed to transfer them to next year, so I asked my employer if it is OK that I take some unpaid leave.

    Problem with that is, that I have no income for a month. The money is not an issue, since I prepare myself for these types of things. But the myriad of taxes, government insurances, tax rebate and tax cut programs making it very difficult for me to take a month off.

    Also our fantastic government healthcare system is failing to provide care for my wife. So now I have to fallback on local members of my community (hi mom and dad!) for help.

    So again, why in the blazing hell I'm I paying so much (under the threat of force) to somebody who refuses to help me and even when they help me, they do a piss poor job?

    I hope that you never come into trapped in this system, it's not a pleasant place to be.

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    I'm sure that if you are stuggling to survive, your government has programs that will assist you.  That's what those evil social programs that rob you every paycheck do.

    What those programs WON'T do and AREN'T MEANT to do is give you free money just so you don't have to dip into savings when problems arise.

    And, it seems that you've got a wonderful little social welfare program set up with your parents.  Good for you.  I'm sure it's a figurative lifesaver.

    Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone could have the same thing?

     

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    @evildictaitor: And they might not be better off, but at least they are FREE.

    Something that I've come into contact with recently.

    My wife suffured an injury and I want to take time off to care for her. My free days are all spent, since it is not allowed to transfer them to next year, so I asked my employer if it is OK that I take some unpaid leave.

    Problem with that is, that I have no income for a month. The money is not an issue, since I prepare myself for these types of things. But the myriad of taxes, government insurances, tax rebate and tax cut programs making it very difficult for me to take a month off.

    Also our fantastic government healthcare system is failing to provide care for my wife. So now I have to fallback on local members of my community (hi mom and dad!) for help.

    So again, why in the blazing hell I'm I paying so much (under the threat of force) to somebody who refuses to help me and even when they help me, they do a piss poor job?

    I hope that you never come into trapped in this system, it's not a pleasant place to be.

     

    So what is your solution? To pay no tax and take care of it yourself?

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @ScanIAm: Yes, that would be awesome! If everyone would have their own community of people to fall back on. A community wich they could CHOOSE to be a member of.

    I'm all for helping my community (that's the idea behind my wp7 app and the idea for the wp8 one, helping the community, this one). I'm not for extortion of money by the threat of force, to be handed out to people that do not belong to the community. I'm willing to help you, so that in a later stage you might return the favor.

    Right now, I have two communities that I'm a part of. One we forged ourselves with bloodties and friendships (this includes collegues) and one wich forces itself through my front door and demands that I pay him. One of these communities is helping me, the other is not.

    Now, you do raise an excellent point. What about the people that do not have a community to rely on? Well, they can join one that wants to have them. Last time I looked the salvation army is always looking to help people. These communities will expect something in return and if you don't agree then you can leave and join another community. And all this can be accomplished, without physically moving.

    Sure you need a government to protect communities from harm, but you do not need a state telling them how to run their community.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @Ray7: Yes and insure for risks that I cannot bear. I don't need insurance for a trip to the dentist or a doctor, I need insurance for two months of cancer treatments.

    Taxation is a sure way of making healthcare less efficient and more expensive.

    When we entered the emergency room, the woman behind the counter was busy entering war and peace into her computer for the neccesairy forms to claim money from the government, instead of providing care for my wife.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    @evildictaitor: And they might not be better off, but at least they are FREE.

    Nope. I'm free to have holidays abroad or to buy expensive cars - which most people in entire continents like Africa and South America can't (because of poverty). I'm free to watch high quality television without needing to watch fourty minutes of adverts an hour (my US collegaues are deeply jealous).

    I'm free do business with whomever and whenever I want (unlike in Russia and China), And I'm free to express my displeasure at the government both privately and publically through the press (unlike those in many countries like Iran).

    I'm free to become senior in business without needing to join "the party" like in China, and I can stand to become Prime Minister in this country without needing spend my entire time in office going from fund-raiser to fund-raiser like they do in the US.

    I'm free to get legal attention if I'm assaulted, my property is taken or if I am abused, which beats almost any previous era in history, and if I were black or female or jewish or disabled, I would be free to work in Industry at the same terms as the rest of the workforce - and be protected by law from any discriminatory employer.

    And when it comes to business, we have a higher share of India's foreign market than America, we deal better with China, we used to own Iran, Iraq and most of the middle east. We speak English which gives us a native advantage in Africa and in North America, we have the EU by the balls over our rebate and routinely make ourselves unpopular there by forcing a British agenda, and we can veto practically anything at the UN.

    I'm free from fear of attack by terrorists (unlike most of the middle-east and Israel), the secret police (like China and Russia) and by other states (like Gaza, Syria, Turkey and large parts of Africa).

    And for all of this - just 45% of my gross income? A deal-and-a-half I'll say. I don't need to present my daughter to the local lord for marriage like in the "good old days" and I don't need to spend 80% of my income on my rent to an abusive landlord.

    In fact, I would contest that the UK right now is freer than any other place in any other country in history.

    My wife suffured an injury and I want to take time off to care for her. My free days are all spent, since it is not allowed to transfer them to next year, so I asked my employer if it is OK that I take some unpaid leave.

    Problem with that is, that I have no income for a month. The money is not an issue, since I prepare myself for these types of things. But the myriad of taxes, government insurances, tax rebate and tax cut programs making it very difficult for me to take a month off.

    BS. The reason you can't get a month off is because of your capitalist employer not wanting to pay you to not work. The government doesn't even come into the equation.

    Also our fantastic government healthcare system is failing to provide care for my wife. So now I have to fallback on local members of my community (hi mom and dad!) for help.

    It's still a whole lot better than if you were poor and the hospital said they weren't even going to admit her until you stump up $50,000.

    So again, why in the blazing hell I'm I paying so much (under the threat of force) to somebody who refuses to help me and even when they help me, they do a piss poor job?

    But you do not live in North Korea. You are free to leave at any time. Renounce your citizenship and move to Somalia. There you'll find that your wife gets top-notch treatment for any ailment, but you'll have to fly her at your own expense to a private clinic in Switzerland to even see a basic dentist.

    The Netherlands don't have you under house arrest, and you are free to leave if you don't like it there. If you do like it, it must be worth all them taxes you're paying.

    You keep talking about how consumers can always vote with their feet and how choice is the thing Maddus. And yet here you are - faced with a choice of Somalia or the Netherlands and the opportunity to vote with your feet and your wallet (by leaving and renouncing your citizenship).

    And yet here we are, Maddus. Here we are.

  • User profile image
    Dr Herbie

    Oh look, yet another pointless argument with Maddus Mattus.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @Dr Herbie: yeah, you are right,..

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    @Ray7: Yes and insure for risks that I cannot bear. I don't need insurance for a trip to the dentist or a doctor, I need insurance for two months of cancer treatments.

    And what happens when your health provider decides that it would be too expensive to treat your cancer? What happens when you exceed your cover for treatment. What happens when your health provider's legal team find a get out clause that means you don't get treated at all?

    Taxation is a sure way of making healthcare less efficient and more expensive.

    And private health providers often find that the least expensive way to treat their customers is to not treat them.

    When we entered the emergency room, the woman behind the counter was busy entering war and peace into her computer for the neccesairy forms to claim money from the government, instead of providing care for my wife.

    That is an admin problem, not a problem with free healthcare. When I was admitted to hospital a few years ago, no one asked me to fill anything in and no one asked for the number of my insurance provider.

    Two months of cancer treatment? You think that'll cover it?

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @evildictaitor: And yet, they are more free then you. They didnt loan massive amounts of money, to be paid by future generations, for their wealth.

    Our household allready owes the State a whopping 100.000 euros and it's climbing, FAST!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt

    You have phony wealth, it's on borrowed money. If I go to the bank and borrow 10 million euros, does that make me a millionaire?

    @Ray7:

    And what happens when your health provider decides that it would be too expensive to treat your cancer?

    That would be a violation of contract.

    And private health providers often find that the least expensive way to treat their customers is to not treat them.

    Last time I checked, no cure no pay. And if they have a poor track record, you switch. Like you can also switch to Apple or Linux when you are not happy with Windows,.. See how this works, free choice?

    That is an admin problem, not a problem with free healthcare. When I was admitted to hospital a few years ago, no one asked me to fill anything in and no one asked for the number of my insurance provider.

    Free healthcare? They work for free? Did not know that.

    Someone is paying, just because you don't see the bill doesnt mean it doesnt get paid.

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    @ScanIAm: Yes, that would be awesome! If everyone would have their own community of people to fall back on. A community wich they could CHOOSE to be a member of.

    You choose to live in the netherlands.  You may not have the option to choose from which womb you fall, but you certainly don't have to stay where you land.

    I'm all for helping my community (that's the idea behind my wp7 app and the idea for the wp8 one, helping the community, this one). I'm not for extortion of money by the threat of force

    Please show me the legal code that forcefully keeps you chained to your country.

    Right now, I have two communities that I'm a part of. One we forged ourselves with bloodties and friendships (this includes collegues) and one wich forces itself through my front door and demands that I pay him. One of these communities is helping me, the other is not.

    So leave.

    Now, you do raise an excellent point. What about the people that do not have a community to rely on? Well, they can join one that wants to have them. Last time I looked the salvation army is always looking to help people. These communities will expect something in return and if you don't agree then you can leave and join another community. And all this can be accomplished, without physically moving.

    Please re-read what you just wrote and replace 'salvation army' with 'netherlands'.  Do so while looking into a mirror for best effect.

    Sure you need a government to protect communities from harm, but you do not need a state telling them how to run their community.

    You seem to confuse the word 'need' and 'want' an aweful lot.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    , ScanIAm wrote

    You choose to live in the netherlands.  You may not have the option to choose from which womb you fall, but you certainly don't have to stay where you land.

    Now when did I choose that? I didnt choose anything, those choices were made for me.

    Please show me the legal code that forcefully keeps you chained to your country.

    My Dutch passport and nationality? Immigration laws of other countries?

    So leave.

    I wont run, I'm going to clean up this mess that the socialists left and debate people that want to keep spending other people's money on themselves.

    Please re-read what you just wrote and replace 'salvation army' with 'netherlands'.  Do so while looking into a mirror for best effect.

    For me to leave the Netherlands would require me to physically move, for me to join a different community, would not. See the difference?

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    @evildictaitor: And yet, they are more free then you. 

    You have a very weird definition of freedom.

    Freedom != individualism.

    You have phony wealth, it's on borrowed money. If I got to the bank and borrow 10 million euros, does that make me a millionaire? 

    If you turn that 10m euros into 20m then yes, you are a millionaire.

    Also you are looking at the wrong numbers. You want "public debt" if you're complaining about government debt, not "external debt". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt). The Netherlands is about $25k per person worth of public debt.

    Most people in Europe, if you include their assets (like their car, their pension, their house etc), are massively wealthy. So it's not all phoney wealth. It's just Maddus having another hyperbole about governments.

    Our household allready owes the State a whopping 100.000 euros and it's climbing, FAST!

    Then you should pay your bills (although God knows how you managed to rack up such a fine - have you been forgetting to pay your taxes Maddus?).

    I, on the other hand, owe not a penny to the British government. They owe money to other people, but that's not really my problem. At the drop of a hat I could leave and that debt wouldn't follow me.

    Free healthcare? They work for free? Did not know that.

    Not free - but about a third of the cost of US healthcare. And by "work" I mean, cures more people of critical conditions, has lower waiting times, higher satisfaction, lower infant mortality and longer life expectancies.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    @Ray7:

    *snip*

    That would be a violation of contract.

    No it wouldn't. The health providers are under no obligation to provide treatment that they don't feel is viable.  You could go somewhere else, but you won't find a health provider who will fund your cancer treatment indefinitely.

    Last time I checked, no cure no pay.

    What, so you're saying that if you're not cured, your health provider will give you your premiums back?  That explains why I get my home insurance premiums returned each year if I'm not burgled.... no, my bad. That doesn't happen. 

     

    And if they have a poor track record, you switch.

    The problem with that logic is that you only discover they're a bad provider when they refuse to pay your medical bill. Then what? Take 'em to court while trying to raise the money for your cancer treatment?

    Like you can also switch to Apple or Linux when you are not happy with Windows,.. See how this works, free choice?

    Free healthcare? They work for free? Did not know that.

    You know what I meant; pretending you don't makes you look desperate. 'Free' in that I don't have to sell my house to pay for it.

     

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    Now when did I choose that? I didnt choose anything, those choices were made for me.

    You chose not to leave the Netherlands just right now. There again! And again!

    In fact, every second that you sit here reading this, and not picking up your passport or ringing up the airport for a flight is a choice by inaction of yours to remain in the Netherlands.

    Somalia has no immigration laws, and it's not all that hard to get a visa or citizenship in another country like America if you put your mind to it and have some skills that they might want.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    I wont run, I'm going to clean up this mess that the socialists left 

    Ruh-h-eally.

    And what have you done so far?

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    *snip*

    Now when did I choose that? I didnt choose anything, those choices were made for me.

    Nope.  If it rains, do youI say "tut, tut, nothing I can do" or do you open an umbrella.  Or move inside.

    If you feel your government is soaking you, move.

    My Dutch passport and nationality? Immigration laws of other countries?

    Are you asking a question here?  It seems to me that most countries in the world would be happy to receive a skilled software developer.

    Honestly, when has a white, male of western european origin had trouble immigrating.

    I wont run, I'm going to clean up this mess that the socialists left and debate people that want to keep spending other people's money on themselves.

    Well, you're not going to clean up anything by spending all day complaining about netherlandian taxes on a software forum.

    For me to leave the Netherlands would require me to physically move, for me to join a different community, would not. See the difference?

    Nope.

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    , Maddus Mattus wrote

    *snip*

    My Dutch passport and nationality? Immigration laws of other countries?

    All obstacles that can be crossed if you really wanted to. Apparently, the cost of the taxes isn't yet bad enough to make you want to go through the trouble to do that, so it can't really be that bad.

    Besides, you're Dutch, and if there's anything Dutch people love (myself included) it's complaining. You would be terribly unhappy if you had nothing to complain about (though I suppose you could then complain about having nothing to complain about...)

    I wont run, I'm going to clean up this mess that the socialists left

    The socialists haven't been in power for quite a while. The last time we had a significant left wing segment in parliament was Paars II (which was also the last time we had a left wing prime minister). And that's even if you want to consider the PvdA to be truly left wing, which I don't (and when was the last time GroenLinks were in power? Oh that's right, never). In fact, since the second world war, almost every single cabinet has been either centre-right or pure centre. So when exactly did the socialists make this mess you speak of?

    All of Balkenende's cabinets have been centre right (except possibly for Balkenende IV, which at least had the PvdA in it). Rutte I was also centre right but more right-leaning I think. So I guess that means things have improved drastically since Wim Kok left the office. Do you think they have?

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