Coffeehouse Thread

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Is XAML Dying?

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  • Dirtbagg

    I was at a job interview for a System Admin job at a programming company yesterday. I mentioned to one of the owners that I was interested in programming and learning to program Windows 8 programs with C# and XAML. His response to me that not to waste time with XAML because it's dying and learn HTML 5. Perplexed

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , Dirtbagg wrote

    His response to me that not to waste time with XAML because it's dying and learn HTML 5. Perplexed

    The fruits of Microsoft's award winning marketing and product strategy of the Sinofsky era.

  • PeterF

    They enabled HTML5 development, no reason at all for them to stop with C# and XAML Wink More importantly, did you get the job?

  • Dr Herbie

    @Dirtbagg: Sounds a bit too Dilbert for my liking -- individual manager/senior staff making sweeping forecasts and shunting the company down one particular route due to their prejudices rather than because it's the best platform for their products; if they're lucky HTML5 is the best platform for their products anyway and it will work out alright, but I'd rather someone take a balanced view and think about it rather than proclaiming one technology 'dead'.

    Personally I would take that as a negative point when weighing up any job offers.

    I also reminds me of a meeting a Java developer who seemed incredulous that "anyone actually uses C#" because it was a backwater technology while Java was the mainstream. I didn't have the heart to tell him he was the first Java programmer I had met in 10 years.

    Herbie

  • spivonious

    @Dr Herbie: Agreed. That comment would be a big red flag for me.

  • Jim Young

    @Dirtbagg: Run, run away as fast as you can!

  • bondsbw

    Honestly, I wish it would.

    Hear me out.  I program almost exclusively in WPF, but one of the big drawbacks is XAML.  It was part of Microsoft's, frankly, silly attempt to use XML everywhere.  Now, that XML gets in the way everywhere.

    A varienty of improvements can be had:

    • I would much rather have a succinct syntax like QML.  
    • The UI code needs to be compile-time checked as much as possible.  Data bindings would seriously improve.  And there are too many instances where I have to run through my entire application debugging it just to find out I mistyped a resource reference.
    • For that matter, get rid of BAML.  Compile directly to IL and skip most of the runtime interpretation aspect.
    • And for now this is last but certainly not least: ICommand.  We need something better.
  • Harlequin

    From experience, enterprise-scale Windows 8 apps in HTML5 are a nightmare. Xaml/C# has such an awesome rapid development it doesn't compare.

  • exoteric

    , Harlequin wrote

    From experience, enterprise-scale Windows 8 apps in HTML5 are a nightmare. Xaml/C# has such an awesome rapid development it doesn't compare.

    On the other hand, with TypeScript and modern Javascript frameworks, the balance is tipping.

  • Dirtbagg

    , PeterF wrote

     More importantly, did you get the job?

    I don't know yet, it is almost four o'clock here. I don't think so. One red flag is the resume they had had on it I wanted to get out of System administration and in to .NET developing.

    Also, while I was waiting to go into the interview I asked one of the other employees what they programmed in. His response was Visual Basic Scared

     

    I have another interview Monday for a contract position for a year and I can get my skills up  to date and try and get a programming position

  • Jim Young

    , Dirtbagg wrote

    Also, while I was waiting to go into the interview I asked one of the other employees what they programmed in. His response was Visual Basic

    Probably VB 6.0  Devil

  • figuerres

    , bondsbw wrote

    Honestly, I wish it would.

    Hear me out.  I program almost exclusively in WPF, but one of the big drawbacks is XAML.  It was part of Microsoft's, frankly, silly attempt to use XML everywhere.  Now, that XML gets in the way everywhere.

    A varienty of improvements can be had:

    • I would much rather have a succinct syntax like QML.  
    • The UI code needs to be compile-time checked as much as possible.  Data bindings would seriously improve.  And there are too many instances where I have to run through my entire application debugging it just to find out I mistyped a resource reference.
    • For that matter, get rid of BAML.  Compile directly to IL and skip most of the runtime interpretation aspect.
    • And for now this is last but certainly not least: ICommand.  We need something better.

    well what about this :  WInforms or Xaml ?

    to me I think that xaml did solve a number of things that were not good about how windows forms tried to save the UI in code.   so while not perfect I think xaml was a big step in the right direction.

     

  • bondsbw

    @figuerres:  Of course I don't want to go back to Winforms.

    But XAML is the new Winforms.  It is a good platform, but there are specific deficiencies that have come to light.  This is normal for a language.  But there are some languages that by design can be updated for years to come, like C#, and there are languages that have key design deficiencies that can't easily be fixed without breaking backwards compatibility, like XAML.

    I think it's getting time that the successor to XAML come along, or at least it's time that Microsoft begins the design of that language.

  • vesuvius

    , bondsbw wrote

    I think it's getting time that the successor to XAML come along, or at least it's time that Microsoft begins the design of that language.

    They did in Silverlight and put XAML on a serious diet. This was as important on tablets where size is important so the successor or XAML in WPF, is XAML in WinRT.

    XAML is here to stay, people will still be writing XAML apps in 2023, that is how Modern UIs are developed on thick clients, unless you prefer JavaScript, XAML however makes more sense on the desktop for most applications (not looking to flame JavaScript lovers, please ignore what I wrote, and just tell yourself that JavaScript is better than XAML)

    Still not sure why someone applying for a sys admin role would or should care about a UI framework, the owner told you this because he want you to be interested in sys admin stuff and not programming, and he probably has invested in HTML heavily. If you speak to someone at Ebay about XAML, they will tell you HTML as their main business is the web so you need to put the advice people give you in context.

  • bondsbw

    , vesuvius wrote

    This was as important on tablets where size is important so the successor or XAML in WPF, is XAML in WinRT.

    Sorry, but no.  There are so many lockdowns and restrictions on the WinRT framework that you cannot call it a successor.  Our LOB applications have hardware and extensibility capabilities that WinRT does not provide, which forces us to use WPF.

    Besides, it doesn't fix one of my chief complaints:  XAML is based on XML.  It is unnecessary bloat from an era that thought XML was the solution for everything.

  • Sven Groot

    XAML was designed for easy tooling. XML makes perfect sense for that. The bloat only matters if you want to write it by hand (and even then a good editor will take care of most of it).

    And I don't know if you noticed, but the alternative to XAML in WinRT (HTML5/JS) also uses a markup language based on XML.

  • Bas

    I'd gouge my eyes out if XAML was based on JSON.

  • MasterPi

    , Sven Groot wrote
    And I don't know if you noticed, but the alternative to XAML in WinRT (HTML5/JS) also uses a markup language based on XML.

    Isn't it based on SGML?

    EDIT: nvm...it's said to be its own spec. If anything, it's based on HTML 4, which is based on SGML. The point is, it's not as strict as XML/XHTML in regards to syntax, which bugs the hell out of me.

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