Coffeehouse Thread

30 posts

It's the start menu, stupid!

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  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    There's currently a massive amount of rumors on the net about Microsoft bringing back the start button and allowing boot-to-desktop.

    But 99% of the usability issues people have is due to the loss of the start menu.

    What's great about booting to desktop if the start screen appears anyway if you want to do anything? I have to agree with the Win8 fans here: Reaching the desktop from the start screen isn't that difficult. The forced start screen itself is the problem.

    And the start button without the start menu is like milkshake without milk (the button is just the straw).

    Just adding the button back, but still make it open the start screen, with no option for the start menu, solves very little. If that's really all there is to it, then W8 will continue to attract ill feelings.

    Oh, and I don't want to discuss the merits and faults of the start screen vs. the start menu yet again, I think we can all agree that I've wrote enough about it already. I am just saying that the button alone won't do much for the people who dislike W8. If they want to make W8 attractive to them, they need include an option for the start menu, too.

  • User profile image
    contextfree`

    I definitely agree (there was a button on the taskbar in DP and it was removed for a reason, apparently having two different ways to get to Start depending on where you were coming from didn't make the system any easier to learn and just added confusion), except that I actually doubt adding a popup launcher would change haters' minds either.

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    @wastingtimewithforums: I hear they're fixing the combined search (apps and settings and files), and honestly I miss nothing else from the start menu.

    I agree that bringing back the button accomplishes nothing.

  • User profile image
    RealBboy360

    Yep, just need the start menu.

    Really, they should just make the desktop icons live tiles and be done with it.  Switching between both is a Sinofsky.

  • User profile image
    Bas

    Bringing back the start button accomplishes the fact that confused consumers who learned about the start button and are now completely lost will now be able to find the start screen because there's a familiar button leading to it instead of an invisible corner.

    From what I heard from detractors the last couple of months, that is scenario is commonplace, hugely confusing and a massive deal, so it makes sense to bring it back as an option.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , Dan276 wrote

    Really, they should just make the desktop icons live tiles and be done with it.  Switching between both is a Sinofsky.

    Lol. They did do that. In Windows8 you do boot to a desktop where all of your desktop icons are live tiles.

  • User profile image
    Retro​Recursion

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    Lol. They did do that. In Windows8 you do boot to a desktop where all of your desktop icons are live tiles.

    How are the desktop icons live tiles? They look like large unattractive shortcuts with a box around them to me. I guess you would call that a tile, but what sense is it live?

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    . <- point

     

     

    @_@ <- RetroRecursion

     

    Smiley

  • User profile image
    DCMonkey

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    Lol. They did do that. In Windows8 you do boot to a desktop where all of your desktop icons are live tiles.

    Well, they almost did that. If only they made the start screen sit behind desktop and metro apps, and activated it with that button in the lower right of the task bar.

  • User profile image
    RealBboy360

    Well the main difference is that you can't resize and move windows around.  And the whole RT thing is garbage. In a few years all tablets will have specs that can run win8.  All these changes and 2 places to run your programs from is confusing for the average person.

  • User profile image
    dahat

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    But 99% of the usability issues people have is due to the loss of the start menu.

    Citation please.

    I seem to recall the decision to remove the start button being based on data from the Customer Experience Improvement Program... such as most users NOT clicking the start button and most users relying instead on pinned frequent apps.

    @Dan276:So don't use RT apps.

    Non-RT versions of Windows 8 still run desktop apps just fine. I vividly remember the new start menu landing in the internal builds of Windows I was running a couple of years back. Sure there was a brief learning curve (same tends to happen anytime you do a major rev of... anything).

    Windows 7 has long been banned from my home, and now everything is running Windows 8 and all are happy... even in cases where the device is not touch enabled.

  • User profile image
    contextfree`

    @dahat: It wasn't "most users not clicking the start button", just that the number of users clicking it was trending downward. That's not the same thing at all.

    The point isn't that the start menu is "bad" and had to be removed because its use is trending downward, or because of the new taskbar. The point is, given that the taskbar takes over many of its functions, how can the start menu be evolved to find a new role and also fit newer trends in use of PCs? The start screen in Windows 8 is an answer to this, it's not the only or necessarily ideal answer, but any problems or deficiencies need to be addressed by actually solving the problems not creating a parallel start menu leading to two places to look for everything and implement everything which just makes no sense.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    , Bas wrote

    From what I heard from detractors the last couple of months, that is scenario is commonplace, hugely confusing and a massive deal, so it makes sense to bring it back as an option.

    This is the feedback from pretty much every PC retailers Sales team. Users go into PC World, see a shiny laptop, start to play with it and their inability to operate the device loses them a sale

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    Here's a serious question...

    Did anybody actually complain about the Windows 7 desktop?

    Maybe I'm confused, but I vaguely remember Windows 7 being hugely popular, especially after Vista.

    So I guess some people will continue to argue that Microsoft and customers are somehow better off today after the desktop castration in Windows 8, vs how it would have been if they instead just continuing to refine what we had with Windows 7.

    So what's your answer? Are we better of with Windows 8 the way it is now or worse?

    My vote is worse, since I hate the pile and just installed Classic Shell to get some form of productivity back again. It's still fugly though.

  • User profile image
    RealBboy360

    , dahat wrote

    *snip*

    Citation please.

    I seem to recall the decision to remove the start button being based on data from the Customer Experience Improvement Program... such as most users NOT clicking the start button and most users relying instead on pinned frequent apps.

    @Dan276:So don't use RT apps.

    Non-RT versions of Windows 8 still run desktop apps just fine. I vividly remember the new start menu landing in the internal builds of Windows I was running a couple of years back. Sure there was a brief learning curve (same tends to happen anytime you do a major rev of... anything).

    Windows 7 has long been banned from my home, and now everything is running Windows 8 and all are happy... even in cases where the device is not touch enabled.

     

    I don't have a problem with this, I'm just saying what turns people off.   I'm much smarter than the average person, so this doesn't apply to me.  But when people click on a link and the RT version of IE pops up, they get confused  and don't understand switching back and forth.  They don't know how to set it up so the desktop IE opens the link instead of the RT version.  They just throw their hands up in the air, give up and buy an apple.  Now part of the problem can be blamed on the american education system or attitude of the general public, but that's a different discussion.  I'm just telling you why people are blogging, that windows 8 is a disaster.  I personally love it.

  • User profile image
    Retro​Recursion

    , Dan276 wrote

    *snip*

    I don't have a problem with this, I'm just saying what turns people off.   I'm much smarter than the average person, so this doesn't apply to me.  But when people click on a link and the RT version of IE pops up, they get confused  and don't understand switching back and forth.  They don't know how to set it up so the desktop IE opens the link instead of the RT version.  They just throw their hands up in the air, give up and buy an apple.  Now part of the problem can be blamed on the american education system or attitude of the general public, but that's a different discussion.  I'm just telling you why people are blogging, that windows 8 is a disaster.  I personally love it.

    IMO and based results from professional studies, such as the Neilsen study, Win8 is a step backward in usability, productivity, and efficiency. Even the average person can discern that.

  • User profile image
    RealBboy360

    , Retro​Recursion wrote

    *snip*

    IMO and based results from professional studies, such as the Neilsen study, Win8 is a step backward in usability, productivity, and efficiency. Even the average person can discern that.

    The desktop isn't much different than windows 7.  It adds a better kernal. (memory management/cpu/graphics).  So it's better for me.

  • User profile image
    Craig_​Matthews

    , BitFlipper wrote

    Here's a serious question...

    Did anybody actually complain about the Windows 7 desktop?

    Maybe I'm confused, but I vaguely remember Windows 7 being hugely popular, especially after Vista.

    What I remember is that all of a sudden after Windows 8 came out, that apparently people had been complaining and up in arms for years about the existence of  windows with borders on them, buttons, title bars, and the evils of non-full screen apps.

    I apparently missed all those complaints over the past two decades. If you believe all the stuff coming out of Microsoft and the Windows 8 fans, apparently non-full screen apps, close buttons, menu bars, and title bars were some intractable evil that people had been picketing in the streets over.

    Apparently, everyone also hated the start menu with a burning passion, yet until Windows 8 came out, the only complaint I ever heard was the stupid "har har, you have to press start to shutdown."

     

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