Coffeehouse Thread

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London's burning

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  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Just watching the live news... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

    farking hell. And it's spread to Birmingham too.

    I don't really have much to say beyond the predicable comments complaining about societal decay, chavs, etc. I wonder how long before order will be restored.

    I'm sure plenty of us come from London, how are things were you are?

  • User profile image
    cbae

    Blame RIM.

  • User profile image
    Cream​Filling512

    What are they rioting about?

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    ,Cream​Filling512 wrote

    What are they rioting about?

    About three days ago, the police were involved in an operation involving an alleged armed drug dealer, during an intervention the suspect shot at the police and the police fired back, killing him.

    All deaths-by-police are handled by the IPCC and the police organisations cannot make any statements about it until the investigation is complete. The family of the killed man held a protest outside their police station and it turned into a riot of sorts when the police wouldn't give them a statement (not that they had to, or were even allowed, because of the ongoing IPCC investigation).

    It then kinda grew from there, except the riots and stuff going on is not a protest against anything, or any kind of dissent, it's just lawlessness: looters et al. just taking advantage of the situation.

    Early calls that these were poor, disaffected youth were shot down after it was shown how these lootings are being organised on Twitter and people using BlackBerry Messaging. RIM has promised to reveal details of relevant BBM messages to the police.

    (I find it amusing how RIM promotes their service as encrypted and secure to the public, when the public actually use RIM's public BBM servers which are not encrypted or protected from snooping eyes in any way).

  • User profile image
    cbae

    Glad to know that the US doesn't have a monopoly on worthless punks.

  • User profile image
    Dr Herbie

    Well, that was sooner that I predicted : Conservative Government -> cuts to spending affecting the poor the most -> rioting in the streets.

    When William Hague described the current Tory party as "Children of Thatcher" I didn't think we would try and replicate it all, right down to the rioting.

     

    Essentially, what started as a social flash-point was taken advantage of by violent elements; the sudden appearance of Molotov cocktails suggests to me that some people were planning to get violent, plus reports from local residents that they didn't actually recognise a lot of the people rioting because they weren't local suggests an organised element.

    Once the rioting starts, the disaffected poor in the area see it as a way of expressing their anger at the current state of things so it continues for several nights and spreads to other poor areas where people feel otherwise powerless. The looting is opportunistic theft by individuals who are either desperate or immoral (on an individual basis).

    @W3bbo: It's not 'social decay'; I don't imagine you remember much about the riots in the 1980s, but try and remember that this has all happened before. It's about a section of society who know that the current government doesn't give a flying f**k about them and showing their displeasure in the only way that they know will make the news headlines. As disgusted as I am at their actions, I think it's worth trying to understand why it's happening here and now and not just put it down to "chavs".

    Oh, and owning a Blackberry is not an indicator of individual wealth; it's like saying that the poorer elements of society can't afford Sky TV or cigarettes..

    Herbie

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    Bas

  • User profile image
    Lee_Dale

    I live in a leafy part of Essex so I doubt I will see any rioters near home.  I come from a Bermondsey council estate in SE London where it was all these youths are kicking off but you know why I now live in a nice detached house in the countryside?

    Instead of complaining, moaning, thieving and being violent, I worked hard and made a career for myself.

    These people are nothing but jobless, bored scumbags that get looked after and fed by the very government they are supposedly rebelling against.

    London has so many of these deprived areas and it always had the difference is back when I was a kid everyone wanted to do well for themselves and get away, trouble is nowdays nobody has to do that because they get looked after too well by the state.

    I don't understand why the army or the TA hasn't been drafted in yet to sort this out, it's the only option. How brave is a 16 year old going to be against a soldier carrying an assault rifle?

    The police don't have any respect in London especially from people that have nothing to lose.

    Any Herbie I don't agree that this is to do with spending cuts etc, people in these areas have had a hatred for police for a long time. It's a culture thing a gang thing were the police are seen as the enemy so any excuse to riot for them. They are annoyed by stop and search of black youths but these areas are mainly black or Asian areas so this is bound to happen.  Alot of the crime in these areas are carried out by this element of society it's a fact, what are the police supposed to do just ignore them?

    And as for the guy that got shot dead by police, he was carrying a gun and a known gang member, what are the police supposed to do?

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    @Dr Herbie: The Police are clearly being beaten technologically, which is why things have gotten out of hand. The only response will be a more visible Orwellian nightmare, which is how things are going anyway.

    Lets remember that Students (W3bbos kith and kin)  were behaving in a similar fashion a few months ago, so it is almost certain that Labour will win the next Election. Looking at the Crisis in America and the state of the markets, it is the poorest that lose out the most and they lack the candor or intellectual faculty to express their discontent in any other way.

    There is a certain honesty (though abhorrent) that I am coming to enjoy the older I get. People that wear their hearts on their sleeves, and tell you what they are upset with (in ways that are embarrassing at times) tend to be more dependable in the long run, than the more duplicitous "smile but don't mean it" type folk. These people only stab you in the back the minute you turn your back anyway.

  • User profile image
    Dr Herbie

    ,leeappdalec​om wrote

    The police don't have any respect in London especially from people that have nothing to lose.

    And there you have the problem in a nutshell -- these people have nothing, and have nothing to lose.  Unfortunately not everyone is able to pull themselves out of poverty; we on this forum have the luck to be intelligent enough to be useful and therefore can make a good living.  Not everyone is as lucky to be a smart as we are.

    Last time I checked the figures (earlier this year) there were twice as many unemployed people as there were jobs to be filled; so even if they hadn't given up hope, there would still be a lot of unemployed people with no money. Saying "I managed to get out, so can anyone else" just doesn't cut it.

    We've created a society where there is a large influence of materialism and 'aspirational lifestyle'; making everyone essentially aspire to own stuff.  And we're surprised when the poor turn to theft to fulfill this aspiration?

    I remember not having money, and being around other people with no money, and how easy it was for the resentfulness and bitterness to creep in. If there had been riots at that time in my life, there would have been the temptation to let the anger take over, but I like to think that I would have taken the moral high-ground.

    Herbie

  • User profile image
    Lee_Dale

    ,vesuvius wrote

    @Dr Herbie: The Police are clearly being beaten technologically, which is why things have gotten out of hand. The only response will be a more visible Orwellian nightmare, which is how things are going anyway.

    Lets remember that Students (W3bbos kith and kin)  were behaving in a similar fashion a few months ago, so it is almost certain that Labour will win the next Election. Looking at the Crisis in America and the state of the markets, it is the poorest that lose out the most and they lack the candor or intellectual faculty to express their discontent in any other way.

    There is a certain honesty (though abhorrent) that I am coming to enjoy the older I get. People that wear their hearts on their sleeves, and tell you what they are upset with (in ways that are embarrassing at times) tend to be more dependable in the long run, than the more duplicitous "smile but don't mean it" type folk. These people only stab you in the back the minute you turn your back anyway.

     

    Seriously, what are you talking about? Get some perspective man!

    These people are walking around the streets of London, looting shops, stealing from vulnerable innocent people and generally causing millions of pounds of damage that hard working people like me will have to pay for with our tax money.  These people don't care because they are not afraid of police or lenient sentences and a high majority will almost surely not pay any tax, instead will probably still continue to claim benefit from the very state that they are attacking.  

    This is a democracy and we all have the right to vote and change the way this country is run, I bet a high majority of these rioters didn't even vote in the last election.

    Don't even try to condone these people actions.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    @leeappdalecom: I am not condoning any of this behavior but I understand what it is happening. For me this is just the same as the student riots, I see no real separation as it is recalcitrance against the Government mostly, exacerbated by the criminal element (inevitably). People have tried peaceful protests (take the recent wars) and the feeling I get from speaking with people is that they are fed up

    I also pay the higher rate of tax so don't think I enjoy watching people abuse my taxes (I have never been on the dole and worked all my adult life). I have lived in poorer areas and suffered abuse from the people whose benefits I pay weekly. there is no love lost with me and the tracksuit brigade.

    My concern is more technologically, how people are using modern day technology to be unlawful and the ramifications that has. I still think I understand why this has happened, and don't separate the behavior of students (people hammering Prince Charles car for instance, Dave Gilmore's son has recently been imprisoned) with what is going on. I think I understand the working class mentality a little better, as I have gotten older.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    There are no more jobs for low income people, that's why they are angry.

    Britain has effectively exported all those jobs to lower wages countries. Under the burden of CO2 and other regulations, all of these jobs have fled the country. Take a look at Spain, the same thing is happening there. These stimulus jobs are taking down regular jobs at a factor of 2,2. That industry is not coming back.

    We, EU and Britain, have effectively destroyed the base of the pyramid. That's why we have a financial crisis and that's why these youths are revolting. It has not yet hit the upper steps of the pyramid, but it's bound to collapse.

    Maybe then, we will stop with all this folly and turn back to normal.

    I hope things in Britain work out and that this doesn't set off in other countries. 

  • User profile image
    CaRDiaK

    Dissafected youth. I no way condone it but after a barrage of cuts to services, mass unemployment, the knowledge most will never buy a house, the media telling us we'll be f****d in our old age, etc etc etc etc..... it's all been smouldering away and now it's ignited. Very sad it's happening, but when you take away hope what do you expect....

    We can only see a short distance ahead, but we can see plenty there that needs to be done.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    CaRDiaK
    We can only see a short distance ahead, but we can see plenty there that needs to be done.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    jessek

    Oh what happening

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    Wow, yeah when folks get to a point they go nuts and make a mess...

    we can never 100% understand it, even the ones who are doing it do not fully understand it as a mob is like a mental breakdown you and if you get sucked in it's like a drug.

    i have to say that all around the world we have places that have problems that could go off like this. it's a global problem with multiple sets of local and global problems.

    I hope we can somehow learn to do better.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @figuerres: These things will always happen,..

    Zonder wrijving, geen glans,..

    Without friction, no shine,..

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