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London's burning

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  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    There are no more jobs for low income people, that's why they are angry.

    Britain has effectively exported all those jobs to lower wages countries. Under the burden of CO2 and other regulations, all of these jobs have fled the country. Take a look at Spain, the same thing is happening there. These stimulus jobs are taking down regular jobs at a factor of 2,2. That industry is not coming back.

    We, EU and Britain, have effectively destroyed the base of the pyramid. That's why we have a financial crisis and that's why these youths are revolting. It has not yet hit the upper steps of the pyramid, but it's bound to collapse.

    Maybe then, we will stop with all this folly and turn back to normal.

    I hope things in Britain work out and that this doesn't set off in other countries. 

    It's not as simple as exporting of jobs that causes all this unemployment.  Capitalism promotes worker effeciency (productivity) and that inevitably leads to greater unemployment.  As long as goverment spending takes up the slack by hiring for social services, that slack is taken up.

    But while this may be true, it rubs "hard workin' folks' the wrong way when someone survives that way.  The result is that public opinion shifts and we cut these services leading to more unemployment.

    It never ceases to amaze me when a company that sells products to the public actively encourages putting some of those in the public out of work.

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    @ScanIAm: Good point about greater efficiency leading to greater unemployment. Here in the U.S. there are lots of people who lost their jobs when the economy went south and now that it's semi-recovered, companies still aren't hiring as they've learned to operate on a much tighter budget.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @ScanIAm: The damage done by the government is much much larger then the damage done by worker efficiency,. And I don't even think that increased worker efficiency leads to less employment.

    That's like saying that IT kills jobs. It just doesn't. It creates them as-well.

    Also, if it is true, worker efficiency improvements go slow over time. Government regulations can change over night.

    Look at the carbon tax we have to pay here in the EU. Doesn't do anyone any good and all the jobs move to India or China,. British steel, for instance, (owned by TaTa) closed down in GB and TaTa set up a new plant in India. There they don't have to pay high wages, co2 taxes and they have less regulations.

    The only ones we have to blame for our predicament, is ourselves.

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    @Maddus Mattus:

    Think about what unemployment means from the point of view of supply and demand.  If there were more demand, then workers would be hired to meet that demand, but there is no excess demand to be found, so those workers are simply unneccessary.  To put it simpler, if 9 workers can make enough to supply 10 people with product, then is the 10th worker  'lazy' or just redundant?

    Even though it would be profitable for all businesses in the long run, no business will ever seriously create 'busy work' that employs that 10th worker.  The only entity that can create work like that is a government because a government doesn't (and shouldn't) be profitable. 

    And, yes, jobs do move elsewhere when the labor is cheaper or the regulations are worse.  The question is, are those regulations unneeded, or just expensive?  It's a cheap shot to bring up CO2 issues when the true cost of labor in the western world has more to do with living wages and safety than it does with carbon taxes.  The solution is tariffs or outright bans on products produced that circumvent ethics.  If you knew that you could buy a product 50% cheaper and the factory that produced that product ran on the heat created by burning puppies and kittens in a furnace, would you?

  • User profile image
    Relf

    It would be wonderful if we could allow for some justification as to why rioting is taking place, no jobs, bad economy, Tory government etc, etc, etc... It is, unfortunately much simpler than that. They are rioting and looting because it earns them street credit and they find it fun. The majority of them couldn't tell you the definition of "economy", are completely oblivious to the fact that we have a coalition government, are completely ignorant to the fact that David Cameron is a Conservative, or indeed what the difference between Conservative and Labour is. Haven't a need to find a job, don't want a job, so aren't really bothered that there aren't any, in fact they are probably completley unaware that there is a job shortage.

    Unlike the riots of the Thatcher era, there is no political motivation for these people; this comes under either two categories for them, entertainment or street\gang "requirements". Nothing more, nothing less. They set building alight because their mates find it funny and they look "well hard", it's as simple as that, as I said, unfortunatly.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @ScanIAm:

    No, I would not burn puppies,.. kittens maybe,.. but puppies? no.

    Cheap shot as it may be, it's just one of the many burdens we put ourselves under. I just used it because I find it one of the most futile of taxes. Pensions, insurance, etc. etc. all add value in some way or another. These kind of taxes don't. They drive businesses out of the country.

    As for your 10/9 worker analogy, are you trying to tell me that we will always have some form of unemployment?

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    @ScanIAm: The damage done by the government is much much larger then the damage done by worker efficiency,. And I don't even think that increased worker efficiency leads to less employment.

    That's like saying that IT kills jobs. It just doesn't. It creates them as-well.

    Sure. IT creates some IT-related jobs. But how many non-IT-related jobs get eliminated as a result?

    Also, if it is true, worker efficiency improvements go slow over time. Government regulations can change over night.

    Efficiency of individual workers may improve only slowly over time, but technology allows organizational efficiency to improve quickly. IT is what makes outsourcing of labor seamless enough to avoid disruption. Why have people on the payroll for a whole year when the work they do is only seasonal? Outsource it to a company that employs a workforce to service multiple client companies simultaneously. Without technology, the disruption of paying somebody else do your work wouldn't be worth the savings realized.

    On the other hand, government regulations could introduce new requirements that force companies to hire new people to do the work to meet those new requirements.

    Look at the carbon tax we have to pay here in the EU. Doesn't do anyone any good and all the jobs move to India or China,. British steel, for instance, (owned by TaTa) closed down in GB and TaTa set up a new plant in India. There they don't have to pay high wages, co2 taxes and they have less regulations.

    The only ones we have to blame for our predicament, is ourselves.

    It doesn't do anyone any good, eh? I guess you don't enjoy clean air. If you're a true believer in free markets, then companies should be able to find ways to become more efficient despite the government regulations. Taking your ball somewhere else and crying about big, bad government is the lazy way out. Laziness and greed are the only reason you have companies shipping jobs overseas instead of doing the hard work of making themselves more efficient or just biting the bullet by hiring more people to do that work and taking less profit.

  • User profile image
    raptor3676

    All those riots in Europe (now London but remember Paris), seems to me to be rooted in boredom, some lack of attention disorder or punks trying to prove themselves to be badasses more than anything else...

    I mean they think they have problems? yeah right!

    Just get them all, take'em to Somalia and make them fight to protect the food supply lines so the UN can feed the starving people overthere, then they can say they know is like to have "problems".

  • User profile image
    Cream​Filling512

    ,cbae wrote Taking your ball somewhere else and crying about big, bad government is the lazy way out.

    No it isn't, laziness would be staying and continuing to operate in a geography with an increased tax liability. 

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    @Maddus Mattus:

    If businesses always strive for productivity improvements and we only expect new jobs to come from the business sector, then yes, we will always have unemployment. 

    And since businesses should always strive for productivity improvements, then the only way to limit unemployment is to find a way to employ the workers that aren't needed.

    I can't say that unemployment is what causes the riots, I was only responding to what you'd said earlier.  Rioting is generally counterproductive, but it's also rarely as simple as "street thugs running wild".  Frustration and youth are a dangerous combination.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @cbae: CO2 is not pollution my dear friend,.. It's essential to all life on earth,..

    Sure some are laid off,.. But they are free to pursue other goals. There will always be a need for workers.

    It's not feasible to think that nothing will ever change. We've moved as a species from burning fires in caves to the society we have today. All through trade, commerce and constantly doing things more efficiently. To put the blame on that now is saying that you want to move back into that cave.

    What all governments fail to realize is that you can't solve a debt crisis with more debt! Someone going to have the bill sooner or later.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @ScanIAm:

    So we should just give up trying to evolve as a society?

    Keep to the horse and cart? Because the horseshoe maker might be out of a job?

    nonsense.

    Things change,. We have no milkman anymore,. Doesn't mean he is unemployed.

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    ,raptor3676 wrote

    All those riots in Europe (now London but remember Paris), seems to me to be rooted in boredom, some lack of attention disorder or punks trying to prove themselves to be badasses more than anything else...

    I mean they think they have problems? yeah right!

    Just get them all, take'em to Somalia and make them fight to protect the food supply lines so the UN can feed the starving people overthere, then they can say they know is like to have "problems".

    Actually, that's not a bad idea.

    Many first world countries send money and supplies to 3rd world nations that have issues.  If we also paid to send excess workers over there as support staff, then we'd end up wasting less of the aid money.

    I guess that is what a UN Aid Worker is supposed to be, so wonder how many would take the opportunity.

  • User profile image
    Cream​Filling512

    ,ScanIAm wrote

    @Maddus Mattus:

    If businesses always strive for productivity improvements and we only expect new jobs to come from the business sector, then yes, we will always have unemployment. 

    And since businesses should always strive for productivity improvements, then the only way to limit unemployment is to find a way to employ the workers that aren't needed.

    I can't say that unemployment is what causes the riots, I was only responding to what you'd said earlier.  Rioting is generally counterproductive, but it's also rarely as simple as "street thugs running wild".  Frustration and youth are a dangerous combination.

    As long as there's economic growth there will be an infinite stream of new jobs as new businesses are created and operations are expanded.  Increases to efficiency, say to automation, might eliminate one job, but at the same time create another industry of jobs to build the automation.  In general, the money freed up from increased productivity get invested and create new jobs someplace else.

    Full employment is not possible simply because there is always X percentage of people who are between jobs, or get caught in some entitlement trap, or aren't employed for some other reason. 

  • User profile image
    Harlequin

    You will never have full employment, there will always be some unemplyment. Full emplyment means a labour shortage if I remember right, and that can be damaging to an economy too.

    You can see that in Canada now, we have a labour shortage of high tech workers among other things. Hell, even my own workplace in Vancouver we have tons of jobs we can't fill.

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    @ScanIAm:

    So we should just give up trying to evolve as a society?

    Keep to the horse and cart? Because the horseshoe maker might be out of a job?

    nonsense.

    Things change,. We have no milkman anymore,. Doesn't mean he is unemployed.

    I'm not saying that at all, and my job directly depends on some pretty disrupting technology Smiley

    What I am saying is that we need to change our ideals so that we don't look at public sector jobs and unemployment assistance as some kind of drain on society.  They are the only parts of a functioning economy that actually allows for society to evolve without the kind of disruption we are seeing now.

    There is a big difference between a person functioning in society and a business functioning in an economy.  When 10 businesses compete in the same market, some will fail.  If 10 workers are competing for 9 jobs, I hope you don't expect the weakest of the 10 workers to crawl away somewhere and die simply because he's the weakest. 

    The milkman can deliver other products, but just for arguments sake, assume that the horseshoe maker couldn't do anything else at the time he was fired.  Without some form of assistance to retrain and live, what does he do? 

    And, one more thing.  You and I and everyone else on this board better damn well hope that someone doesn't invent an AI that can write software.  Otherwise we'll all learn what it is like to be a  horseshoe maker in the world of the car.  Are you prepared for a disruptive piece of technology like that?

  • User profile image
    Cream​Filling512

    ,ScanIAm wrote

    And, one more thing.  You and I and everyone else on this board better damn well hope that someone doesn't invent an AI that can write software.  Otherwise we'll all learn what it is like to be a  horseshoe maker in the world of the car.  Are you prepared for a disruptive piece of technology like that?

    If someone did that it would drive the cost of everything to zero and you wouldn't care about having a job.  We just have to please our robot masters.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    The main problem is younger generations are full of themselves. No government can fix that. They have to get spanked and retrained. Well, that also includes me, but, at least I know my shortcoming.

    As for riot, shop owner should have machine gunner on the store rooftop like the Korean vs African American riot. When there is not enough police to protect you, you have to protect yourself.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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