Coffeehouse Thread

75 posts

Forum Read Only

This forum has been made read only by the site admins. No new threads or comments can be added.

Conversation Locked

This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.

London's burning

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    @cbae: CO2 is not pollution my dear friend,.. It's essential to all life on earth,..

    Sure some are laid off,.. But they are free to pursue other goals. There will always be a need for workers.

    It's not feasible to think that nothing will ever change. We've moved as a species from burning fires in caves to the society we have today. All through trade, commerce and constantly doing things more efficiently. To put the blame on that now is saying that you want to move back into that cave.

    What all governments fail to realize is that you can't solve a debt crisis with more debt! Someone going to have the bill sooner or later.

    Manufacturing moved out of 1st world countries well before global climate change became a serious issue. It's far easier to let China and India pollute their environment then to come up with technologies that allow us to manufacture in our own countries while maintaining the clean air and water that we demand from where we live.

    And what kind of idiotic nonsense is "CO2...It's essential to all life on earth"? Oxygen is essential to life on earth. Do you want to live in atmosphere that's 100% oxygen?

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    @CreamFilling512:You joke, but the reality is much worse. 

    I can definitely see a situation where the inventor or patent holder of that tech causes worldwide economic collapse and doesn't really care. 

    If you think about it, humans have the ability to create enough food, clothing, and shelter for the entire population of the world, and yet the vast majority of the worlds population is deficient in at least one of these.  Why would it be any different with the magic software creating AI?

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Cream​Filling512 wrote

    *snip*

    No it isn't, laziness would be staying and continuing to operate in a geography with an increased tax liability. 

    Shipping jobs to another country to avoid taxes completely frees you from having to come up with intelligent ways of improving operational efficiency. It's both lazy and short-sighted.

    When your own people are the biggest customers of the crap that your country sells, then shipping jobs overseas doesn't really help grow your customer base now, does it?

     

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @cbae:

    Look up photosynthesis! CO2 is plant fertilizer! You are breathing out CO2 as we post comments!

    As to shipping jobs, it's not lazy or short sighted, it's called economics.

    If even one of your competitors is doing it, you are going to have to follow or go out of business,.

    I don't think you comprehend what it is like to drive a business,. It's shape up or ship out!

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    @cbae:

    Look up photosynthesis! CO2 is plant fertilizer! You are breathing out CO2 as we post comments!

    Dude, I know what photosynthesis is. It's idiotic to think we need more carbon dioxide than what we already have in our atmosphere, and that having more is actually good for the well-being of the planet.

    As to shipping jobs, it's not lazy or short sighted, it's called economics.

    If even one of your competitors is doing it, you are going to have to follow or go out of business,.

    I don't think you comprehend what it is like to drive a business,. It's shape up or ship out!

    Look at our country's trade deficit and our current economic turmoil and tell me it's "just economics". It's BAD economics.

    Again, shipping jobs overseas to gain a competitive edge is being LAZY. A smart company would find ways to implement technology or to improve processes or to improve management to compete DESPITE having higher labor costs of hiring local workers and/or observing regulatory requirements. A smart company would convince its customers to pay the premium for a higher-quality product produced by local workers AND environmentally-conscious manufacturing process.

    Shipping jobs overseas IS shipping out.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    @ScanIAm:

    So we should just give up trying to evolve as a society?

    Keep to the horse and cart? Because the horseshoe maker might be out of a job?

    nonsense.

    Things change,. We have no milkman anymore,. Doesn't mean he is unemployed.

    We don't need the milkman anymore. We're not going to need the newspaper delivery boy anymore. We're not going to need the printing press operator anymore. We're not going to need the mechanic that fixes the printing press anymore.

    Nobody is saying that we shouldn't evolve technologically, but evolving AS A SOCIETY is going to require more than just evolution of technology. Entire segments of the population are being deprecated every day. Unless you are going to let people starve on the streets, we as a society have to move beyond expecting the free market to provide the jobs to keep people gainfully employed. Technology is allowing profit-motivated companies to produce more with less. As ScanIAm mentioned, governments are going to have to find work for people to do or there's going have to be a huge paradigm shift in which a company's success is not measured by profits, but by the number of workers that they can gainfully employ while remaining solvent. The chance of the latter happening are about zero, so guess what. 

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    Last post on CO2, as this thread is about London;

    Generic Forum Image

    More CO2 == more food,.. More food == less people die of hunger.

    Agreed, shipping jobs is shipping out,.. But sometimes you just have to, otherwise you wont have a business left. And that's even worse.

     

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @cbae:

    I still disagree it's up to the governments to provide jobs and income. It makes people lazy and dependent, like other Niners pointed out.

    And besides, if you want to destroy money, hand it over to the government. For each euro the government spend, two euro's have to go in.

    I'm not saying government is bad, on the contrary, I like my government,. It's just that they tend to grow and grow imposing ever more ridiculous regulation. Putting a halt on true innovation, because they ruin the free market. 

  • User profile image
    cbae

    @Maddus Mattus: Plants don't live in a vacuum. Higher global temperatures kill plants in other climates.

    Do you double as a climate scientist when you're not doing development? If not, I suggest that you leave this stuff to people who study this for a living.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @cbae: just pointing out that it is one of the insane bubbles that our governments are spending an insane amount of cash in, for no good reason,..

    Do you double as a climate scientist when you're not doing development? If not, I suggest that you leave this stuff to people who study this for a living.

    And trying to reason from authority, is not a constructive way to debate. I am free to voice my opinion on any matter I choose.

    Still another post,.. damn!

     

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    @cbae:

    I still disagree it's up to the governments to provide jobs and income. It makes people lazy and dependent, like other Niners pointed out.

    And besides, if you want to destroy money, hand it over to the government. For each euro the government spend, two euro's have to go in.

    If you take the rise of technology to its logical conclusion, the free market won't be able to sustain the jobs to keep everybody gainfully employed. I'm not saying that I WANT the government to be responsible for jobs. I'm saying that that's the direction we're heading.

    I'm not saying government is bad, on the contrary, I like my government,. It's just that they tend to grow and grow imposing ever more ridiculous regulation. Putting a halt on true innovation, because they ruin the free market.

    "True innovation" like allowing banks to get "too big to fail"? Yeah, that's what lack of regulation got us.

     

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    @cbae: just pointing out that it is one of the insane bubbles that our governments are spending an insane amount of cash in, for no good reason,..

    "Insane amount of cash"? ORLY? How much is that? Do you have any concrete figures?

    And "no good reason"? Saving the planet is not good enough reason for you? You can debate whether or not it will work, but you can't say that there's "no good reason". That's just ludicrous.

    And trying to reason from authority, is not a constructive way to debate. I am free to voice my opinion on any matter I choose.

    Still another post,.. damn!

    I'm not claiming any authority, and you're not just voicing your opinion. You posted a picture of a tree growing taller because of increased CO2 and stated that CO2 is good for the plants as though it's a fact. I'm telling you that thousands of PhD climate scientists aren't a bunch of retards who drew conclusions about the effects of global climate change by looking at CO2's effect on a single tree. That's not an opinion either. That's a fact.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    If you take the rise of technology to its logical conclusion, the free market won't be able to sustain the jobs to keep everybody gainfully employed. I'm not saying that I WANT the government to be responsible for jobs. I'm saying that that's the direction we're heading.

    I don't see that at all. I'm seeing that we are moving away from it. This crisis is the perfect example. Governments think they can create jobs by spending enormous of money on "green" jobs. In Spain unemployment is through the roof, because government stimulus packages backfired completely. It created jobs the market didn't ask for, at the expense of 2,2 job per stimulus job. As a result they have stopped to program completely!

    Let the free market clean up this mess. Disband the Euro. Go back to the EEG and cut government spending. That's the only way you create real sustainable jobs. And yes, the free market will provide jobs for everyone that is willing to roll up their sleeves.

    "True innovation" like allowing banks to get "too big to fail"? Yeah, that's what lack of regulation got us.

    Don't get me started on banks Wink

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @cbae:

    Concrete figures in Holland? No, it's actually now under debate in our government. But educated guesses go from a couple of billions to the tens of billions. And that's just for Holland.

    For instance; if I just look at windmills alone, we spend about 1 million euro's a year per windmill in stimulus (this is documented). We have about 5.000 of them,. With several hundreds more planned. For windmills alone, the stimulus is allready 5 billion euro's. Then there are other stimulus packages on solar cells and "green" energy. The list goes on and on.

    There is already a 50% tax on my energy bill. My company car tax tarif went up from 18% to 21%. In return I get zilch and emissions happen anyway, just not in Holland. So we are guilt free.

    Oh,.. BTW Humans can't save the planet.

    The planet is fine. It has been fine. It is/was never ever in danger. It will be just fine long after we are gone,.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    *snip*

    I don't see that at all.

    Open your eyes. The free market has never been freer in its history. We have a true global economy. Companies can sell products in virtually any other country. Yet, unemployment is rampant globally.

    I'm seeing that we are moving away from it. This crisis is the perfect example. Governments think they can create jobs by spending enormous of money on "green" jobs. In Spain unemployment is through the roof, because government stimulus packages backfired completely. It created jobs the market didn't ask for, at the expense of 2,2 job per stimulus job. As a result they have stopped to program completely!

    How do you know Spain wouldn't have lost even more jobs without the stimulus?

    Let the free market clean up this mess. Disband the Euro. Go back to the EEG and cut government spending. That's the only way you create real sustainable jobs. And yes, the free market will provide jobs for everyone that is willing to roll up their sleeves.

    The free market asked the government to clean up the mess. Corporations are all about being unfettered from regulation, but they come crying to the government the instant that they need a hand-out.

    Don't get me started on banks Wink

    Go right ahead. The current state of banking is the result of the free market run amok.

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    @cbae: err,... btw,..

    CO2 makes plants grow better,.. it's a fact,.. try it at home,..

    Come to Holland, I'll show you a greenhouse where they burn gas to get CO2, to make the plants grow bigger,..

  • User profile image
    Maddus Mattus

    Open your eyes. The free market has never been freer in its history. We have a true global economy. Companies can sell products in virtually any other country. Yet, unemployment is rampant globally.

    no it's not, first it was rampant in China and India,.. Now it's here,..

    Chinese government and Chinese people are a big fan of the free market,.. It has brought them much wealth.

    How do you know Spain wouldn't have lost even more jobs without the stimulus?

    Because those jobs would have added value, stimulus jobs don't. That's why they need stimulus.

    The free market asked the government to clean up the mess. Corporations are all about being unfettered from regulation, but they come crying to the government the instant that they need a hand-out.

    Only corporations that got bailed out where banks. And they should have collapsed. So I agree with you there.

    Go right ahead. The current state of banking is the result of the free market run amok.

    partly true,.. also the lack of enforcement of regulations and some other stupid regulations,..

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Maddus Mattus wrote

    @cbae:

    Concrete figures in Holland? No, it's actually now under debate in our government. But educated guesses go from a couple of billions to the tens of billions. And that's just for Holland.

    For instance; if I just look at windmills alone, we spend about 1 million euro's a year per windmill in stimulus (this is documented). We have about 5.000 of them,. With several hundreds more planned. For windmills alone, the stimulus is allready 5 billion euro's. Then there are other stimulus packages on solar cells and "green" energy. The list goes on and on.

    OK. Now how much would it have cost to produce energy by other means? And if you didn't have windmills, who would even visit your country? Smiley Consider it an investment in the tourism trade.

    There is already a 50% tax on my energy bill. My company car tax tarif went up from 18% to 21%. In return I get zilch and emissions happen anyway, just not in Holland. So we are guilt free.

    Oh,.. BTW Humans can't save the planet.

    The planet is fine. It has been fine. It is/was never ever in danger. It will be just fine long after we are gone,.

    If you consider the "planet" just the sphere of rock that revolves around the Sun, yes it will be fine long after we're gone. But we're not just talking about the rock now, are we?

Conversation locked

This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.