Coffeehouse Thread

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Microsoft always lets this kind of stuff happen

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  • User profile image
    cbae

    Link

    When are they going to learn? From what happened with Windows 8, we know that people always expect the worst. With Windows 8, Microsoft was in a position to let rumors fly without saying much of anything because of Windows' dominant position. But this is a clear case where the rumors need to be nipped in the bud. They're going to derail any success that Lumia 900 has had by keeping quiet about it. 

    If they actually have learned, and they're still keeping quiet about it, one can only speculate that WP8 is going to represent such overhaul of the hardware specs that it will be too difficult to support the existing devices. Maybe there's some truth to the rumor about WP8 sharing the same kernel as Windows 8.

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    @cbae: Is it a rumor? I thought WP8 was Windows 8 with the WP7 UI. They've already alluded that WP7 app devs can port their skills to WP8, i.e. Silverlight is dead, use WinRT.

    edit: read the article. I have huge doubts that MS would not have an update path from WP7 to WP8. Especially with the Lumia 900 just released. Now, whether or not carriers release that update remains to be seen.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @cbae: My take on it is that Microsoft still hasn't found the sweet spot on performance vs. functionality for WP8. They want a cross-platform solution space in the form of WinRT/Metro but can't just put all of W8 on a phone. It's a battle between performance and function; what you have to toss out of W8 to make WP8 performant yet still provide a reasonable cross-platform solution space.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    @DeathByVisualStudio: I think you're right, and that's probably part of the reason why Microsoft has been so slow to add features to WP7. They probably wanted to wait on some of the core features to be added to W8 on ARM first. Unfortunately, the WinRT/Metro application model itself seems to be "half-baked".

    If you look back over the past 3 years, it seems like Zune HD was a beta test for Windows Phone 7, and Windows Phone 7 was a beta test for WinRT/Metro. But if Microsoft wants to unify all devices under one platform, I think Window Phone 8 will seem like a beta test again. Unless WinRT/Metro can mature rapidly enough feature-wise in the next few months, I think WP8 may still have to endure another period of seeming half-baked since it will have its wagon hitched to W8.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @cbae: Right you are; beta to beta to beta that seems to be their MO. Gotta throw in Winforms => WPF => SL => WinRT/Metro in that mix too. They just never seem to be able to commit to something and are always chasing but never arriving.

    If WinRT/Metro is a fail then I'm sure they'll invent another beta technology to take its place rather than fixing WinRT/Metro. Maybe it's part of the "not invented here" mentality that affects so many developers.

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    All part of why my current plan is to wait and see what happens.

    as it stands right now i think in about one year from now i may have an iPhone and a Mac book air.

    esp, if Apple does a new model with a display like the iPad with 260 ppi screen specs at the same size as the current macbook air.

    windows phone and windows 8 on the desktop - nope.   my desktop machine will stay on windows 7 for now and if windows 9 / 10 have a better desktop user story i will look at them.

    windows 8 on arm:  i will wait and see how it goes.  if it does not go well i will get an iPad.

    if windows 9 / 10 do not look good then i will get a mac desktop system.

    Microsoft:  you are losing a 25-30 year customer due to your crappy handling of things.

  • User profile image
    davewill

    , cbae wrote

    Link

    *snip*

    If they actually have learned, and they're still keeping quiet about it, one can only speculate that WP8 is going to represent such overhaul of the hardware specs that it will be too difficult to support the existing devices. Maybe there's some truth to the rumor about WP8 sharing the same kernel as Windows 8.

    Referring to Hardware Specifications for Windows Phone it seems like the hardware is already ahead of Windows "modularized".  Additional hints ... Microsoft wanted no-native on the WP7.  I'd imagine so they could bring the WP7 market and the new WinRT market together at some point in the future.  Remember the goal is Windows Everywhere.  Given that hardware today (even on the smallest devices) can run general purpose OSes it seems the goal of applying the Windows OS across all devices is achievable.  Combine what we know about Ballmer's statement of Windows everywhere and what we have heard about Windows being more modular and the plan seems pretty clear.

    Since there are no Windows Phone 8 hardware specs publicly available yet, we can't verify how far along the merge paths Windows Phone 8 sits.  Is it the final merge point before Windows everywhere or is there some more to go?  Too soon to tell.  In addition the merge paths will more than likely have to be amended because there are other competitive market forces in play and they are some big boys too.

    Ultimately there may be no transition from WP7 to WP8 not because of the OS changes but because of the wireless carriers insistence on controlling the software on the devices.  Maybe leaking to the market there is a new Windows 8 for phone in the works is designed to put pressure on the wireless carriers to allow OS vendors access to their OS customers and by extension allow software vendors access to their customers.

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    Paul Thurrott says his sources tell him that WP8 will not be available for WP7 devices.

    That stinks. Even Apple lets users run iOS5 on the iPhone 3Gs.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    , spivonious wrote

    Paul Thurrott says his sources tell him that WP8 will not be available for WP7 devices.

    That stinks. Even Apple lets users run iOS5 on the iPhone 3Gs.

    People keep complaining, and some Fanbois keep stating that Microsoft have taken the right decision long term, but they have been unable to commit to anything on the desktop for the last decade, and the phone is also following suit.

    I lost my faith in Microsoft a little while back, and anticipated that Windows Phone would be chopped and changed like they have done so well before.

    Apple have gone from iOS 1 to iOS 5, and I am awaiting Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich to upgrade my 2.3 version.

    Only a fool would buy a Lumia 900 phone now. If you have one, take it back.

  • User profile image
    bitdisaster
  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    LMAO in this issue. Another thread to diss the problem that caused by switching to w8 core too early. This topic is rather months old from my perspective.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    Escamillo

    @vesuvius:

    , vesuvius wrote

    *snip*

    People keep complaining, and some Fanbois keep stating that Microsoft have taken the right decision long term, but they have been unable to commit to anything on the desktop for the last decade, and the phone is also following suit.

    I lost my faith in Microsoft a little while back, and anticipated that Windows Phone would be chopped and changed like they have done so well before.

    Apple have gone from iOS 1 to iOS 5, and I am awaiting Android 4.0 Ice Cream Sandwich to upgrade my 2.3 version.

    Only a fool would buy a Lumia 900 phone now. If you have one, take it back.

     

    It would seem that so-called "tech savvy" folk that post to this forum can't even tell the difference between incremental upgrades of the same OS (eg. iOS1 thru iOS 5) and a transition from one OS to an entirely different OS (WP7 to Apollo).  Comparing a WP7 to Apollo transition to the incremental upgrades from iOS1 to iOS5 is totally meaningless. 

    And you bring up the fact that you are wating to upgrade your Android to ICS.  Yeah, you, along wiht 97% of Android users.  ICS was released ~6 months ago, yet only 3% of Android uses have been able to upgrade to it.  That upgrade path may as well not exist at all.  Most will be onto a new phone by the time they get to upgrade their current Androids.  Yet you cite that as an example of how things shoudl work. lol

    This Coffeehouse forum has gone in the toilet ever since Rory left.  Mostly what we get now are malcontents and Microsoft-bashers.  There use to be lots of tech talk on this forum and actual insight, but those days are looooong gone.  And that's why the userbase of this forum has dropped down to fewer than a dozen regulars.  The ones remaining are mostly the malcontents that can sit around and pat themselves on the back at how brilliant they are (they equate cynicism with brilliance).  The rest that remain are those few individuals that have the stomache to put up with the nonsense constantly spewed by the malcontents.

     

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    @Escamillo: yes, i might be one of your so-called "malcontents and Microsoft-bashers" here. but vesuviusvesuvius??

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    , Escamillo wrote

    @vesuvius:

    *snip*

    It would seem that so-called "tech savvy" folk that post to this forum can't even tell the difference between incremental upgrades of the same OS (eg. iOS1 thru iOS 5) and a transition from one OS to an entirely different OS (WP7 to Apollo).  Comparing a WP7 to Apollo transition to the incremental upgrades from iOS1 to iOS5 is totally meaningless. 

    You have missed my point entirely, in that Apple and Google have chosen a technology, and stuck with it. As applications are written, they are backwards compatible, and their customers get a consistent experience from phone to phone. Apple especially have been able to optimise their software so it is incredibly fast and responsive.

    And you bring up the fact that you are wating to upgrade your Android to ICS.  Yeah, you, along wiht 97% of Android users.  ICS was released ~6 months ago, yet only 3% of Android uses have been able to upgrade to it.  That upgrade path may as well not exist at all.  Most will be onto a new phone by the time they get to upgrade their current Androids.  Yet you cite that as an example of how things shoudl work. lol

    The issue here is that most third party companies like Samsung and HTC have customised versions of the OS, and Phone providers like Vodaphone/O2/Three (AT&T or Verizon stateside) and so on are very slow to roll the updates out. This is set to change in the future.

    This Coffeehouse forum has gone in the toilet ever since Rory left.  Mostly what we get now are malcontents and Microsoft-bashers.  There use to be lots of tech talk on this forum and actual insight, but those days are looooong gone.  And that's why the userbase of this forum has dropped down to fewer than a dozen regulars.  The ones remaining are mostly the malcontents that can sit around and pat themselves on the back at how brilliant they are (they equate cynicism with brilliance).  The rest that remain are those few individuals that have the stomache to put up with the nonsense constantly spewed by the malcontents.

    The truth of the matter is that Content Delivery is now what Channel9 is mostly about (It falls under Evangelism, and this forum has nothing to do with that), and the forums are seldom promoted. I know that the minute I post something against Windows Phone, someone from Microsoft creeps out of the woodwork to completely rubbish what I have written because people are very sensitive to any bad press to do with the product. I will however continue to warn friends and colleagues against Windows Phone and Windows Metro because Microsoft have never stuck to any technology for more than a few iterations - that is not bashing Microsoft, but the truth.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    , magicalclick wrote

    LMAO in this issue. Another thread to diss the problem that caused by switching to w8 core too early. This topic is rather months old from my perspective.

    What does whatever kernel underlies the phone have to do with anything? Current gen WP7 devices would be perfectly capable of running an NT based phone OS, the hardware is easily powerful enough. And WP8 will run all WP7 apps, so again that's a non-issue too. The software side of things is clearly not the issue here.

    I suspect the reasons behind Microsoft staying quiet on this one ultimately comes down to the carriers. They don't want to update people's existing devices because it makes it much harder to sell them new shiny ones. As has been evidenced by the WP7 update story, Microsoft wanting a clear consistent update pattern has been well and truly slammed by the carriers decisions.

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    , Escamillo wrote

     

    This Coffeehouse forum has gone in the toilet ever since Rory left.  Mostly what we get now are malcontents and Microsoft-bashers.  There use to be lots of tech talk on this forum and actual insight, but those days are looooong gone.  And that's why the userbase of this forum has dropped down to fewer than a dozen regulars.  The ones remaining are mostly the malcontents that can sit around and pat themselves on the back at how brilliant they are (they equate cynicism with brilliance).  The rest that remain are those few individuals that have the stomache to put up with the nonsense constantly spewed by the malcontents.

     

     

    Rory ?  he has nothing to do with the way things are....

    perhaps you fail to understand that some of the folks who are not happy (like me for example) are the same folks who have been here for a *very long time* and used to be part of the other discussions you refer to.  but things have changed; I have every right to say what i think as long as i am not attacking people and as long as i am "within bounds" so to speak.

    some of us have been very pro microsoft for a long time and we see things that we feel are going the wrong way.   by posting our thoughts here there is a small chance some folks at microsoft will see the post and act on it.

    No that's not for sure but it's a thing we can do before we go to the next step.

    in the end i and the companies i work with will vote with our money and that in the end will get microsoft to listen, if sales drop they will get the message for sure.

    and none of that will stop me for beeing a part of a good topic when i see one.  I still have code to maintain that uses .Net and WPF and WIndows Forms and so on....

  • User profile image
    Bass

    @AndyC:

    But what is the point? Is switching to NT going to make anything better for end users? Developers? I fail to see how. The only thing it _might_ do is make Microsoft's software more maintainable in the future, but it also _might_ introduce new complexities and bugs.

    If Microsoft never made WinCE, it would be a different story. In that case it would be perfect sense to extend WinNT to support phones. But they already invested decades of engineering to make a kernel optimized for embedded devices and phones, and throwing that away just seems... like a bad idea?

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    , Bass wrote

    @AndyC:

    But what is the point? Is switching to NT going to make anything better for end users? Developers? I fail to see how. The only thing it _might_ do is make Microsoft's software more maintainable in the future, but it also _might_ introduce new complexities and bugs.

    If Microsoft never made WinCE, it would be a different story. In that case it would be perfect sense to extend WinNT to support phones. But they already invested decades of engineering to make a kernel optimized for embedded devices and phones, and throwing that away just seems... like a bad idea?

     

    what i wonder about is how they got to where they are?

    for example when planning the windows phone 7 did they look at where windows v next was going and did they look at what the future of windows CE might look like?

    on the surface it seems like windows phone 7 is almost a "practice run" and tossing it after really only one version seems like poor planing when the first version was created.

    but perhaps this was a result of things that were changing while WP7 was beeing created.

     

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