Coffeehouse Thread

86 posts

Microsoft always lets this kind of stuff happen

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    contextfree`

    @DeathByVisualStudio: I'm talking about the Windows Phone and Windows 8 interfaces. They are obviously related, but different in many ways in terms of function, input language, design etc. "Metro" is pretty broad given that it also applies to stuff like Zune Desktop.

  • User profile image
    Blue Ink

    @DeathByVisualStudio: It is tempting to think that a tablet is just an oversize phone, and the iPhone/iPad seems to reinforce that concept.

    Things don't work that way with Metro: while you can keep its distinctive looks, most of the interface cannot be carried over and needs to be reinvented. For instance, try taking a panorama application from a small portrait screen to a large landscape screen and you end up with an ugly mess. Another example is the start screen: on a phone it shows at most 8 tiles at the same time, so the mostly monochrome look not only is acceptable, it gives a sense of reduced clutter. Try that on a much larger screen with potentially twenty or more tiles, and it becomes unusable.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , DeathByVisualStudio wrote

    No but apparently Microsoft does give a damn about using the Windows kernel everywhere and pissing away a ton of development dollars and good two years of time-to-market for tablets.

    It takes Microsoft at least two years to get up in the morning.

    I should probably also point out that the majority of work on Windows8 has nothing to do with tablets. The UI and WOA might be pretty obvious changes, but that doesn't make them the only changes.

    Thanks for making my point. Most people don't buy an Android phone because it's running a Linux kernel. 

    Are you serious!? The market for Android devices is huge!

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    From what I recall, you get out of memory warnings when core apps like safari eat up system resources. And, it's difficult to determine how much the system wants you to trim before it kills you.

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , contextfree` wrote

    @DeathByVisualStudio: I'm talking about the Windows Phone and Windows 8 interfaces. They are obviously related, but different in many ways in terms of function, input language, design etc. "Metro" is pretty broad given that it also applies to stuff like Zune Desktop.

    Ah so there's room for interpretation here and I'm not trolling. Thanks.

    , Blue Ink wrote

    @DeathByVisualStudio: It is tempting to think that a tablet is just an oversize phone, and the iPhone/iPad seems to reinforce that concept.

    Things don't work that way with Metro: while you can keep its distinctive looks, most of the interface cannot be carried over and needs to be reinvented. For instance, try taking a panorama application from a small portrait screen to a large landscape screen and you end up with an ugly mess. Another example is the start screen: on a phone it shows at most 8 tiles at the same time, so the mostly monochrome look not only is acceptable, it gives a sense of reduced clutter. Try that on a much larger screen with potentially twenty or more tiles, and it becomes unusable.

    I don't own a WP so other than playing with it in a store I can't comment on specific functionality. That said I think they way Microsoft is looking at it the phone vs. tablet presentations are nothing more than different views (i.e. like the snap? view for partially shown apps in W8). You still end up with the same basic layout of tiles, titling, and hints of scrollability. The view either adapts to the portrait or landscape presentation or is replaced with one with a specific implementation that is better suited to the available pixels.

    , evildictaitor wrote

    *snip*

    It takes Microsoft at least two years to get up in the morning.

    I should probably also point out that the majority of work on Windows8 has nothing to do with tablets. The UI and WOA might be pretty obvious changes, but that doesn't make them the only changes.

    That's too bad for Microsoft. Apple and Google seem to wake up just fine.

    You really need to get your head out of the kernel. Users don't care. It doesn't matter what the nerds do under the hood unless that changes the user experience (i.e. smaller, lighter devices, better battery life, improved UI, more realistic fart apps). The W8 experience is principally about tablets (and making the desktop a second class citizen in the process) and that's most of what users are going to see.

    *snip*

    Are you serious!? The market for Android devices is huge!

    Let me rephrase that so you can't skew it:

    Thanks for making my point. Most people don't go down to the phone store and say "I want to buy a phone running a Linux kernel."

     

     

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , DeathByVisualStudio wrote

    It doesn't matter what the nerds do under the hood unless that changes the user experience (i.e. smaller, lighter devices, better battery life, improved UI, more realistic fart apps). 

    Every change in the kernel changes the user's experience. Upgrades to the scheduler make the entire system faster. A change to make pagefaults happen 20% faster makes the whole OS feel speedier. And a single misplaced kernel lock can tank an otherwise well performing app.

    Users might not care about the technical details, but you just have to look at how angry they get when their device has two hours less battery life than a leading competitor to see that they care that it's done well.

    The W8 experience is principally about tablets (and making the desktop a second class citizen in the process) and that's most of what users are going to see.

    Yeah, and most of what users saw in Vista and 7 was the aero glass interface. That doesn't mean that Microsoft have 10,000 developers making the glass interface. 

    Thanks for making my point. Most people don't go down to the phone store and say "I want to buy a phone running a Linux kernel."

    I'm not sure anyone is under the misimpression that users want the Windows8 kernel. What they want is a phone that works. What Microsoft wants is to reuse existing code so that developers spend more time inventing new features for customers and less time re-inventing what someone in a different building has already implemented. That's why Microsoft are unifying the kernels. Not because they think users give a damn.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    @evildictaitor:

    I'm not a kernel expert but I think the big job of a kernel is to not crash and give as much of the hardware resources to user space, without consuming much of it itself. I don't think WinCE is known to be bad at this job.

    So what WinNT will provide to users or developers? Is it certain that the performance and stability will be better, or could it get worse?

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    @Bass:NT supports a lot of things WinCE doesn't, like more than dual core processors (And WinCE support for it is extremely limited, which is probably why the Phone7 specs didn't bother with it) as well as a bunch of power management tech like Core Parking and more sophisticated scheduling that could well be highly beneficial on phones.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , Bass wrote

    @evildictaitor:

    I'm not a kernel expert but I think the big job of a kernel is to not crash and give as much of the hardware resources to user space, without consuming much of it itself. I don't think WinCE is known to be bad at this job.

    The kernel also needs to enforce security, manage inter-process communications, memory allocations (virtual and physical memory, not heap-allocations), handle hardware faults, manage synchronization, external interrupts, manage the graphical subsystem, authentication, network traffic, the filesystem, the drivers, power-management, handle memory that breaks dynamically, the paging subsystem to page out old memory, managing hibernation and resumation, managing the local user-account, handling requests from user-mode via the syscall interface and the user-mode process subsystem and the kernel debugging interface, none of which can be done in user-mode.

    Why do you think it's a good idea for Microsoft to have several entirely different teams each building their own set of those (the Xbox team, Windows, Phones, tablets etc all need one - why not reuse the code?)

    So what WinNT will provide to users or developers? Is it certain that the performance and stability will be better, or could it get worse?

    It could get better or worse. The reason for joining the two is more to do with code-reuse than performance.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictaitor wrote

    *snip*

    It could get better or worse. The reason for joining the two is more to do with code-reuse than performance.

    So like I've been saying all along this is a geek's wet dream. After getting spanked by the iPhone you think Microsoft's priority would be to recapture hearts and minds with what they have on hand rather than going back to well and spend two years "solving" a problem. I don't know about Microsoft but in my world when your competitor is kicking your arse you do what ever it takes to get back in the game.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , DeathByVisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    So like I've been saying all along this is a geek's wet dream.

    Sounds more to me like a manager trying to avoid duplication in the workforce.

    I don't know about Microsoft but in my world when your competitor is kicking your arse you do what ever it takes to get back in the game.

    If your competitors are winning, do you suggest either

    a) keep doing what you were doing before (i.e. keep getting spanked)

    b) Try as hard as you can to avoid duplication across your workforce (have one kernel for all of your products) and do things which are brave and trying to make your products more like what they are buying (like introducing metro for all of your customers that are using iPads/iPhones/Android and prefer big blocky interfaces)?

    From all of the pain that is coming from the IT industry and developers who really hate Metro, I have to say that Windows8 seems like a geek's worst nightmare. Most normal customers don't care. They just want it to work.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictaitor wrote

    *snip*

    Sounds more to me like a manager trying to avoid duplication in the workforce.

    *snip*

    If your competitors are winning, do you suggest either

    a) keep doing what you were doing before (i.e. keep getting spanked)

    b) Try as hard as you can to avoid duplication across your workforce (have one kernel for all of your products) and do things which are brave and trying to make your products more like what they are buying (like introducing metro for all of your customers that are using iPads/iPhones/Android and prefer big blocky interfaces)?

    From all of the pain that is coming from the IT industry and developers who really hate Metro, I have to say that Windows8 seems like a geek's worst nightmare. Most normal customers don't care. They just want it to work.

    So bottom line if I understand you correctly:

    Windows Everywhere is a cost-cutting move that has no chance in h3ll of regaining hearts and minds because the user interface has already been judged a failure.

    If that's the case I'd have to say I agree with you.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , DeathByVisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    So bottom line if I understand you correctly:

    Windows Everywhere is a cost-cutting move that has no chance in h3ll of regaining hearts and minds because the user interface has already been judged a failure.

    If that's the case I'd have to say I agree with you.

    No. I just said Windows Everywhere is rationalizing Microsoft's codebase. There's certainly a brand element to it as well (otherwise they'd just do it any not tell you about it), but fundamentally Windows Everywhere isn't about performance.

    And let's be clear that "the user interface has been judged a failure" merely means that there is lots of vocal opposition to Windows 8 at the moment. But Windows 8 is only being used by technical people at the moment (I don't know any "normal people" using Windows8 yet - even if it is available via the CP). Which means that the Windows8 UI is disliked by technical people.

    Since technical people also invented the hideous contraption that is the command line interface, and most developers couldn't tell the difference between a working UI and a slap in the face, I'm going to wait until normal people (i.e. not developers) start trying out Windows8 before judging whether it was a success or not.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @evildictaitor: Wow. You got reach back to the command line? Really? I don't suppose the command line had anything to do with the natural progression of computers? I think users found Windows 95 amazing it its day and Windows 7 was well received by the average joe. Nice stretch Evild. Oh and BTW, my kids are both using W8. My daughter bails to the desktop right away; doesn't like metro. She's 17. My son just likes the free games; he's 15. My GF won't touch it; way too many new things to learn. Glad to know your representation of the entire world is as accurate as ever.

    I'm also glad to know at least that we both agree Windows Everywhere isn't about performance. Maybe they should call it Longhorn Phone Edition for the phones? That has a nice ring to it.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    cbae

    @DeathByVisualStudio: What about your wife? How does she feel about your GF W8? Wink

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    Ignoring for the moment that your son and daughter are each using W8 to their liking and personal styles...your family is suddenly representative of an entire population?

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , cbae wrote

    @DeathByVisualStudio: What about your wife? How does she feel about your GF W8? Wink

    My ex-wife is too dumb to handle W8.

    , MasterPie wrote

    Ignoring for the moment that your son and daughter are each using W8 to their liking and personal styles...your family is suddenly representative of an entire population?

    Absolutely not nor did I claim them to be. And for the record both have asked me to put W7 back on the home PC.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , DeathByVisualStudio wrote

    Oh and BTW, my kids are both using W8.

    Well if both of your kids can manage, why do keep getting so angry about it?

Comments closed

Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.