Coffeehouse Thread

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Microsoft have outdone Apple. Period!

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  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    I think it doubtless that from pure usability standpoint, the new Windows 8 is acres and acres better than any iDevice to date. I know that a fair amount of developers here are finding it hard to deal with a dual functionality operating system (with refinement changes imminent and inevitable),from a pure tablet based standpoint, I would trade my iPad in on e-bay tomorrow, and replace it with a windows tablet were they available.

    There have been some astute observations buy some niners, including the guy that stated indecision about any .NET making it into WinRT - had this been the case this operating system would have been a failure - I just hope Steve Jobs or any of his team can fess up and say that Microsoft "dun good". Boy they really dun good!

    Credit must go to the Windows Phone team, where the key Metro design emerged, subsequently taken and refined by the Windows team. The usual suspect niner developers that complain about UI are implacable, so ignore their cries, they are smart and we love them, but we take them out shopping and not the other way around.

    I also wish Fanbaby, Bass and our open source unit can be man enough and admit that this operating system is a thing of beauty, instead of trying to find capital in Silverlight is dead posts, this is now boring and nauseating, please change your tune.

     

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    OK, I have a confession. I have never seen anything as beautiful as Win8. And I'm not talking UI here!

    Yes, the Metro UI will set the standard in design for many, many years to come, and in all sort of industries. You will see it in movie titles, on soup cans, and what not. Thank god Microsoft has patented the fonts! Soon Apple would have copied it as it has shamelessly done in the past. Not to mention UNIX free-loaders who were stopped at the last moment from redoing their man pages in Metro.

    But that's not the thing of beauty i'm talking about. No sir. It's the internals. I have never ever seen this level of CS. Teaching CS is never going to be the same. Tennenbaum Shmennenbaum. Books will be rewritten. nothing will ever e the same.

    Browser theory and history will also need a rewrite. Who will remember those puny little browsers who never managed to go above 7 FPS. HAHAHA, 7 FPS!

  • User profile image
    Bas

    Is your mother proud of you?

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    Bas, no my mother isn't proud of me of course. But after this post, I am!

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    ,vesuvius wrote

    .... instead of trying to find capital in Silverlight is dead posts, this is now boring and nauseating, please change your tune.

    You tell me

  • User profile image
    Bass

    I'm going to have to download it first in order to properly criticize it. But no worries, I'll eventually get there.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    ,Bass wrote

    I'm going to have to download it first in order to properly criticize it. But no worries, I'll eventually get there.

    What?! That's not the internet way. What's wrong with you?!

  • User profile image
    Richard.Hein

    I agree.  Ballmer must be feeling pretty satisfied after the calls for his resignation. 

    We'll see if everything is as jolly as it seems over the next year or so, but it looks like a really good paradigm that will have a lot of mileage.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    I honestly cannot tell if this thread is ironic or not.

    Me being serious now: Metro is "nice", and it works on mobile devices because it cleanly and clearly displays information, that's fine.

    And we've all seen that it doesn't work as well on a desktop. The same UI designed for 1024x768 is simply upscaled for 1920x1200.

    ...and I'm actually getting a bit "seasick" of Metro's bold and contrast-y design, in much the same way I almost felt physically nauseous over Vista's sea-green colour scheme (thankfully 7 sorted it out and introduced more neutral blues).

    I'm of the opinion that an OS should not have a strong visual identity of its own (by 'strong' I mean like how Metro is, it's incredibly pervasive). Don't think I don't want consistency (I'm a huge proponent of it) but I think Metro mandates too much.

    I'm not alone in feeling this: many people I've spoken to have expressed similar "fatigue" over "METRO ALL THE THINGS!" and just want to go back to the not-so-in-your-face classic desktop.

    I'll analogise Windows 8 to the New Coke: enough people will write letters of complaint, comparing the new thing to some form of excrement and then they'll introduce "Windows Classic" 2 years later.

    Another analogy I made was:

    [20:26:56] Me: I think Windows 8 will be Microsoft's Mirrors Edge to Apple's Portal
    [20:27:06] Leo: hah, nice analogy
    [20:27:17] Me: i.e.: give them praise for experimenting and coming up with something new, original, and fun to use ... but it just "doesn't work" in some vague undefined way

  • User profile image
    jamie

    hey w3 Smiley

    i think a lot of metro sea sickness could be cured - in part - by offering a choice (yes a choice - remember those?) of Wipe, Disolve in or Plain

    The screens flying back and forth doing routine things (like going between flipping desktop and start "menu" is insane

    Does apple hold a patent on apps that fade in from nowhere - zooming in quickly?

    that would be better than huge WIPES

    PS - W3 - i see youve shaved  Tongue Out

     

  • User profile image
    sysrpl

    What's the matter with you geeks? Do you really want to use the metro interface (an interface that dumbs down the entire OS and all the applications) so very much?

    http://photos.appleinsider.com/windows8-110914-1.jpg

    If yes, you spend too much time on facebook/twitter/reddit/(other time wasting sites) and must really be bored of being an actual geek...

    You probably watch a lot of cop/lawyer and reality television as well. Sheesh.

  • User profile image
    elmer

    ,W3bbo wrote

    Me being serious now: Metro is "nice", and it works on mobile devices because it cleanly and clearly displays information, that's fine.

    And we've all seen that it doesn't work as well on a desktop.

    I think Metro is the right solution for touch devices... although it remains to be seen how quickly the "fashionable" look dates.

    However, as a desktop computer environment, not so much.

    If MS are going to impose this as the primary environment for all personal computers, then I fear there is going to be another VISTA style rejection by business users, who have a large base of people working with the "classic" environment and who are not going to want the expense (time and money) of retraining them.

    I believe this should be a personality mode that can be selected, so that the default environment can be set to match the type of device and application.

  • User profile image
    jamie

    @sysrpl

    hells kitchen Tongue Out

    *dont forget - to the corp bean counters - the less you know about your pc - the more they can feed you pap

    thats why they love Jobs model ... oh its a tablet - NOT a pc

    uh no thanks - i want an ms tablet - WITH touch that looks great that IS a pc - with options and right mouse (however) and properties of every last icon

    but it is not in their interest to empower that way anymore (or so they think)

    they just want the vending machine pc - and are run by an ad salesman football player

    (and we all no how much respect i have for him)

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    ,sysrpl wrote

    What's the matter with you geeks? Do you really want to use the metro interface (an interface that dumbs down the entire OS and all the applications) so very much?

    It doesn't dumb anything down, it just "streamlines" the experience so you can do common tasks more quickly and easily (it's true, except that "common tasks" are what Joe Users want to do: email, the web, the sort of things you used to hear in the old "Get a Mac" ads on TV).

    I hear they're going to slightly "metro-ify" Office 2014, but this could mean anything from keeping the current UI for "classic" users and introducing a new "Metro mode" (think: for tablets) to just replacing all the icons in Office 2014 with ridiculously oversized text.

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    There is some good stuff under the covers, from a programming perspective. However, I think the design language of Metro is too restrictive for the desktop. I like to think of the problem as the three little bears of UI. The WinForms bed was too small, it was difficult to make applications that looked distinct. While the WFP bed was too big, promoting applications to look like anything the programmers dreamed -- plus a little scoop of ugly butter. Metro was a good set of guidelines for the phone, when space is at a premium, but becomes too restrictive as precision of the user input increases. What needs to be created, IMHO, is a design language that scales up and down the precision of controller, to optimally complete a given task, when presented with the constants of the interface. Or something along those lines.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    ,JoshRoss wrote

    There is some good stuff under the covers, from a programming perspective. However, I think the design language of Metro is too restrictive for the desktop. I like to think of the problem as the three little bears of UI. The WinForms bed was too small, it was difficult to make applications that looked distinct. While the WFP bed was too big, promoting applications to look like anything the programmers dreamed -- plus a little scoop of ugly butter. Metro was a good set of guidelines for the phone, when space is at a premium, but becomes too restrictive as precision of the user input increases. What needs to be created, IMHO, is a design language that scale up and down the precision of controller to optimally complete a given task when presented with the constants of the interface. Or something along those lines.

    This, except replace "little scoop" with "a whole industrial ice cream tub".

    Oh, and of course, the annoying JIT delay in CLR applications. Even NGen doesn't solve that.

  • User profile image
    Lizard​Rumsfeld

    ,JoshRoss wrote

    There is some good stuff under the covers, from a programming perspective. However, I think the design language of Metro is too restrictive for the desktop. I like to think of the problem as the three little bears of UI. The WinForms bed was too small, it was difficult to make applications that looked distinct. While the WFP bed was too big, promoting applications to look like anything the programmers dreamed -- plus a little scoop of ugly butter. Metro was a good set of guidelines for the phone, when space is at a premium, but becomes too restrictive as precision of the user input increases. What needs to be created, IMHO, is a design language that scale up and down the precision of controller to optimally complete a given task when presented with the constants of the interface. Or something along those lines.

    That's a great analogy, and I completely agree.  I have seen nothing to indicate Metro scales well to larger displays or more complex apps at all.  The massive visual (and usability) shock when you invoke Metro by just calling a search from the standard desktop is very jarring and is just very poor design.

    And..."beautiful"?  Really?  Metro can be beautiful, but I haven't seen much evidence yet in Win8.  On a small touch display, monochromatic icons and huge fonts are fine - you need to see info quickly and from a good distance from your eyes.  

    But blow that up to a 23" display, and it really starts to look as if was designed by Crayola - and that's the good stuff, the tiles that were designed from the outset for Metro.  Seen the metro start screen after you add an app?  Separate, mono chromatic square with small, ugly old icon.  

    Especially with the bastardized Aero they've got going - that is truly the ugliest GUI MS have put out in recent memory.

    The problem with MS and GUI's really comes down to fit and finish.  Some concepts are good and somtimes - like with the Zune player - they do show attention to the details.  But it's rare.  You can not like Apple's designs, but you can't argue that one of the reasons so many people find their interfaces attractive is that spend a lot of time on the little details - font rendering accuracy, drop shadows, slightly curved edges, smooth backgrounds that don't clash with the foreground elements, detailed icons, etc.  MS has never shown that attention to detail and so far they don't appear to be starting now (I mean really, a bright-green monochromatic background is the new Metro design guide?  Really?).

    There's of course time for tweaks, but some of the visual problems go deeper than needing a nudge - and again, MS seems to be leaving GUI design to the last element instead of having a culture of design from the outset - which I think it needs.

  • User profile image
    jamie

    *stands and cheers*

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