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Microsoft still in denial

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  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/windows-8-sales-well-below-projections-plenty-blame-go-around

    Sales of Windows 8 PCs are well below Microsoft's internal projections and have been described inside the company as disappointing. But here's the catch: The software giant blames the slow start on lackluster PC maker designs and availability

    They are wondering why Win8 sales are lackluster, blame PC makers? REALLY?

    The problem with Windows 8 is simply that it feels as if Windows 95 (yea, 95) is actually the successor version, not the other way around.

    1. The desktop has multiple windows, Metro has not.

    2. Desktop programs can be resized, Metro apps cannot.

    3. The desktop has drag and drop between applications, Metro has not. Instead of just selecting the items you want to export and actually move them into the other program, you need to handle with "charms" which comes across far more unintuitive than just dragging and dropping.

    4. The desktop has nearly unlimited multi-tasking abilities, Metro has not.

    5. Metro apps are far more limited in scope, by design, than desktop programs.

    6. Desktop programs have depth and 3D, Metro apps on the other hand seem to be approved by the Flat Earth Society.

    7. Desktop programs are usually more colorful and vibrant, the Metro design principle consists of CGA style mono-color.

    Winzip for desktop:

    Generic Forum Image

     

    WinRT version:

    Generic Forum Image

    Which one does look more like a C64 program?

    8. You can open up other programs in the desktop, through the start menu, without disrupting workflow. On the other hand the start screen is something like the "item menu" in games where you dress up your character with weapons etc. Everyone knows that it is quite distracting switching between item menu and game world in games, and Microsoft brought this concept onto its flag ship product! Hooray.

    9. Desktop programs can be easily distributed, Metro apps are locked-in into the store.

    And that's just the problem of the WinRT part. The fact that Win8 has multiple control panels and update mechanisms and is a duality monster hasn't been touched upon here. Yet alone that Win8 apologists in all seriousness propose arcane keyboard shortcuts as solution for some of the glaring problems, where previous versions worked just fine without using them.

    If an alien would just land on our planet and see Windows 7 and Windows 8 (and its programs) for the first time, without no prior knowledge, he would think Windows 7 is the successor, not 8.

    I am not "against change", I am not married to the start menu or Win32. If something truly better would come along, I would be sold. But Win8 just isn't.

    I still can't get over it. They took a phone GUI and put it on full fledged computers as default...
    The premise is so retarded when you take your time to think about it for more than one millisecond, just unbelievable. Like putting a bike into a car chassis.

    That they were able to go with this and run it to the very end is just * incredible.

    With these issues, they wonder about the sales of this system? Hello?

    Oh man, I swear I seriously didn't want to post another huge Windows 8 post, but Microsoft's blame game and inability too see the forest for the trees is pumping.

  • User profile image
    ZippyV

    You don't need to repeat it over and over again. We know all those things already and nobody forces you to use it.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , ZippyV wrote

    You don't need to repeat it over and over again. We know all those things already

    I know, sorry.

  • User profile image
    kettch

    None of those things are actually why sales aren't doing well.

    WinZip on the desktop has always been ugly as hell, I hate it like poison. Just because they did a half-assed job designing their Store app, doesn't mean all Store apps are ugly. I can't be bothered to list them, but it looks like there are some things there that violate the design guidelines.

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    Well given the context of the below expected sales figures, I guess on some level it justifies another round of Why-Windows-8-Sucks.

    I'm pro-MS in general but I have to say every single point raised is valid and of concern. I hate the direction MS is taking Windows into. I have nothing against the concept of Metro, however making it so integral with the desktop, and crippling the desktop in the process is a mistake.

    In fact I even suggested exactly the Metro concept before we knew anything about it, it is just that I think they broke the tried-and-tested desktop for no benefit whatsoever that anybody can seem to come up with. I can joke and say Windows 8 was my idea (see link above), but I'd hate to be associated with the direction Windows 8 is going into (yes I don't really think it was my idea, but the suggestions I made in that thread was essentially spot-on).

    It is interesting to see the objections in that thread to the Metro idea. "Once you've decided to run Windows on an ultramobile device, you've already failed."

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , kettch wrote

    None of those things are actually why sales aren't doing well.

    Yea, sure, it's only because of karma. The actual design decisions (like, for another millionth example, that even geeks had to google to find out how to turn this thing off!) have of course zilch to do with it...

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    I think Windows 8 is a year or two ahead of its time. If you haven't used it on a touch device, you really haven't used it. It is absolutely perfect for the casual tablet use case.

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    , spivonious wrote

    ...It is absolutely perfect for the casual tablet use case.

    And absolutely horrible for the serious desktop use case.

  • User profile image
    kettch

    @BitFlipper: That hasn't been my experience at all.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , kettch wrote

    @BitFlipper: That hasn't been my experience at all.

    BitFlipper has my vote. Microsoft could have done a great job integrating the desktop and Windows Store App worlds. Instead they bolted the Windows Store App environment onto Windows and pushed aside the desktop. Sinofsky is a firm believer that the world is moving to touch and W8 reflects his desire to force that idea onto people. If WinRT is the future I sure hope Microsoft gets a clue and affords the desktop access to the same features that Windows Store App environment has so we can provide users with the best experience across the desktop and Windows Store App environments.

  • User profile image
    kettch

    @DeathByVisualStudio: Because the engineering effort to do a full integration would have been so easy.

    ...and I still haven't found anything on the desktop that I couldn't do before in 7.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    , kettch wrote

    @DeathByVisualStudio: Because the engineering effort to do a full integration would have been so easy.

    ...and I still haven't found anything on the desktop that I couldn't do before in 7.

    Yes, you can do it, but can you do it as easily or conveniently?

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    @wastingtimewithforums: To be honest, all of these problems are fixable. The biggest concern for me is Microsoft trying to blame this potential train wreck on their partners. It smacks of denial and that is very worrying.

     

  • User profile image
    DCMonkey

    , kettch wrote

    @DeathByVisualStudio: Because the engineering effort to do a full integration would have been so easy.

    ...and I still haven't found anything on the desktop that I couldn't do before in 7.

    Metro app icons on the taskbar? WWAHost in an overlapping window with standard window chrome? Might as well build a rocket to Mars.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    My main problem with Win8 is it's just too much newness all at once.

    Like for instance, Touch-orientated design is probably a good idea to get into the tablet arena. And a Windows store is a good idea. And re-designing the Win32 APIs is a good idea. And moving stuff to all be asyncronous is a good idea. And if we're honest, killing the start-menu was a good idea, and so is changing the system to be more integrated with online services such as mail.

    But all at once basically means that developers who are used to the Win32 way are struggling to see why they would want to have to relearn everything (the APIs are different, the screen is different, the architecture might be different, the inputs are different, even the commercial backend is different).

    Microsoft needs to be more clear on what is important and what isn't. Choose your battles, Microsoft. Otherwise people look at your products, see stuff that is entirely unfamiliar and go into defensive "I don't like it" mode. It happened with Vista, and it's happening again with 8.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , Ray7 wrote

    @wastingtimewithforums: To be honest, all of these problems are fixable.  

    That is true, but..

    , Ray7 wrote

    @wastingtimewithforums: The biggest concern for me is Microsoft trying to blame this potential train wreck on their partners. It smacks of denial and that is very worrying.

    indeed. Instead of fixing, they are playing the blame game. Countless of knowledgeable people (Windows experts and developers, not the usual anti-MS brigade) hammered them in the past twelve months about the very obvious issues with Windows 8, yet Redmond acted as if the whole town went through a self-hypnosis course. "La la, can't hear you!".

    If the shock over the Windows 8 sales is indeed real and unexpected at MS HQ, then I am truly shocked.

  • User profile image
    kettch

    @Ray7: I can't say I've noticed any issues. I've been doing development and all of my normal stuff, both work and personal.

    Store apps are in their own silo, and have no effect on the desktop, so my desktop workflow is the same as it's always been. My desktop applications still work the same. There are different API for things, but only if I'm writing Store apps. For other projects I can still access all of the previous APIs and development scenarios in exactly the same way.

    Maybe I need more caffeine, but I can't seem to get agitated over anything.

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    , BitFlipper wrote

    *snip*

    And absolutely horrible for the serious desktop use case.

    Horrible? No, just a little less efficient. I think they made the right tradeoffs in order to save their consumer PC market.

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