Coffeehouse Thread

136 posts

Microsoft still in denial phase over W8.. possible "relaunch" in February

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • dentaku

    , BitFlipper wrote

    @wkempf: I don't know about that. While I agree starting endless threads about how much Windows 8 sucks probably doesn't help, telling people to stop complaining about Windows 8 isn't the right approach either. If everyone followed that advice then MS would start thinking Windows 8 was actually a good idea.

    My personal reason for complaining is that to me Windows 8 is a clear step backwards, and it does affect me since I spend a lot of time doing real work in Windows. I've given it quite a bit of time now and it annoys me more and more each day. MS is going out of their way to destroy 20 years of UI refinement, I think complaining about it is to be expected. And saying "we get it" misses the point completely.

    If it annoys you guys so much, why do you take the time to consciously click, read and comment on threads that are clearly marked with an accurate title? It's an honest question.



    When us geeks complain it probably doesn't make much of a difference. Microsoft has grown immune to such things over the years unfortunately.
    The problem is that the regular person ISN'T complaining and not because they don't have anything to complain about, it's just that increasingly they don't care. Can't the high up people at MS see that this is a dangerous step towards the company becoming irrelevant at least in the regular every day consumer market?
    PLUS The people who sell computers don't feel comfortable even pretending to be enthusiastic about selling a Win8 machine that isn't portable and touch enabled so they've pretty much given up too.

    You see, the people who actually matter just don't care as much as they would have back in the Vista days (some people only use their phones and barely touch a computer anymore) so Microsoft isn't feeling the negativity as much and this isn't good for a giant company that live in a bubble in Redmond.

    There is still a huge amount of non-touch computers out there (even with all the phone and tablet usage) so not letting us geeks and the slow to upgrade corporate customers use Win8 the way we want to is just a dumb move.
    It may be a transitional product but this transition was made much too abruptly with no way to customize it in a way that would make it acceptable to everyone.

    When I get a portable touch enabled device I will be happy to use this new stuff because it's quite nice but I have two big non-touch IPS panels sitting in front of me (at arms length), a mouse and a keyboard and very little of the new interface is well suited to my hardware.

  • contextfree`

    The problem is that the regular person ISN'T complaining and not because they don't have anything to complain about, it's just that increasingly they don't care. Can't the high up people at MS see that this is a dangerous step towards the company becoming irrelevant at least in the regular every day consumer market?

    MS is well aware that people are caring less about Windows and PCs lately - that's why they decided a radical change like Win8 was necessary in the first place.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    PaoloM wrote

    And it appears that Win8 is pulling its weight. So much for the doom and gloom...

    Yeah and WPF/SL isn't dead either. Time to break out the rainbows and fairies...oh wait

     

    , contextfree` wrote

    *snip*

    MS is well aware that people are caring less about Windows and PCs lately - that's why they decided a radical change like Win8 was necessary in the first place.

    This is all just IMO...

    I agree they needed a radical change but it's too little too late. They needed something incredible to attract the consumer market and to gain trust and acceptance in the corporate market. Instead they put out what looks like an unfinished beta of some OS that doesn't know what it is. They did themselves no favors by putting out the experiments that were the Kin and WP7 (beta for WP8). They severely strained a legacy of great developer relationships with how they handled WPF/SL and the lack of a future for the desktop (or at least some story). Radical? Yes. Successful? Not looking like it... And that frustrates the hell out of me. 

  • dentaku

    , contextfree` wrote

    *snip*

    MS is well aware that people are caring less about Windows and PCs lately - that's why they decided a radical change like Win8 was necessary in the first place.



    but they could have done that without removing the ability for non-touch users to use the new OS in the way that is more acceptable to them

    It's not like we're asking for something new to fix a problem. We're just asking for them to put something back so we can have a smoother transition from the old way and the new way during the years that all the older non-touch computers are still being used.
    Win 8 seems to be a great modern OS and that's what makes this situation so annoying to those of us who haven't yet got a modern touch enabled device but would like to use it OR the people who have bought a new computer that doesn't have a touchscreeen that has Win8 pre-installed on it but find it clumsy compared to the old Win7 interface.

    Our (us nerds) complaints make it seem to the average non-nerd as if Win8 is a bad OS when obviously it's not. They don't get that we're complaining about usability and the inability to customize it to something that suits the way we work, not stability or any deep technical problem with drivers, compatibility and such like in the days of Vista.

  • evildictait​or

    , dentaku wrote

    *snip*

    When us geeks complain it probably doesn't make much of a difference. Microsoft has grown immune to such things over the years unfortunately.

    This is why I tell people to stop complaining. If you pick your battles, Microsoft will listen. If your complaints turn into a constant drone of negativity, Microsoft won't listen even when they should.

    It's the boy who cried wolf, right? When WTWF complains about everything from ClearType to Start-menus to metro apps in general to even Vista's sidebar gadgets (that noone used) being deprecated in Windows8, it's hard to take any of his complaints seriously - even if the complaint is valid (statistically some of his complaints must be valid, just based on the sheer number of them). On the other hand, when Sven Groot complains about ClearType, his lack of general complaining means that people actually take notice.

    This is why you need to be careful what you complain about. Be quiet and positive and people will sit up and pay attention when you speak loudly or are critical. If you're loud and negative all the time, people will tune you out and you'll never be heard, no matter how hard you stamp your feet.

  • MasterPi

    , evildictait​or wrote

    This is why you need to be careful what you complain about. Be quiet and positive and people will sit up and pay attention when you speak loudly or are critical. If you're loud and negative all the time, people will tune you out and you'll never be heard, no matter how hard you stamp your feet.

    +1 Rule of a lot of things, really. Too much of anything drowns you out into the backdrop where it becomes increasingly difficult to stand out.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    This is why you need to be careful what you complain about. Be quiet and positive and people will sit up and pay attention when you speak loudly or are critical. If you're loud and negative all the time, people will tune you out and you'll never be heard, no matter how hard you stamp your feet.

    So how is it that the outcry on SOPA through blogs, forums, and social media channels helped get that bill tabled? While I agree that you can drown out any message with too much volume I don't believe its that simple.

    In toning down the negativity here I think part of the answer lies in being the bigger person. Instead of throwing rocks back at the complainer simple acknowledge what you believe is true about the complaint or say nothing at all. Eventually those who are looking for remediation will be satisfied or look elsewhere. I'm not suggesting that will create a perfect panacea here but it certainly would be better than fanning the flames.

    It sad that the noise causes Microsoft to write off the issues. It may be their loss but in the end it's my loss too; I loose a nice homogeneous environment to develop in and to recommend to my customers. Maybe they are just to big anymore to care. Sounds like Apple is having the same problem. I wonder how Google has seemed to stayed so nimble? I'm sure their day is coming too...

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • magicalclick

    @evildictaitor: are you suggesting people seeking gay marriage should stop complaining? Because I cannot see how this would help government to care more.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • magicalclick

    @DeathByVisualStudio: disagree, I love WP7, and in some ways, WP7 is better than WP8. Give it some credit please.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • evildictait​or

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    So how is it that the outcry on SOPA through blogs, forums, and social media channels helped get that bill tabled? 

    SOPA wasn't stopped by the same old voices complaining. It was stopped by people who had previously been quiet raising their voices for the first time. Like Wikipedia and Google and Reddit and so on blacking out their home pages. It wasn't the angry bloggers that senators had long since stopped listening to. It was the quiet reasonable folk who made their objections known that senators suddenly had to sit up and listen to.

    [either] acknowledge what you believe is true about the complaint or say nothing at all. 

    I wouldn't want you to be under the mistaken impression that everyone agrees with you all of the time. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean that everyone else shares that opinion. When I disagree with you, it's often not because I hold the opposite viewpoint to you, just that I want the other viewpoint to be there to counterbalance your assertions.

    It sad that the noise causes Microsoft to write off the issues.

    It's not just Microsoft that tunes out constant background noise. It's everyone.

    , magicalclick wrote

    @evildictaitor: are you suggesting people seeking gay marriage should stop complaining? Because I cannot see how this would help government to care more.

    That's one hell of a strawman you got there.

  • magicalclick

    @evildictaitor: don't we all. But I guess you will disagree again.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • contextfree`

    fwiw, I really doubt the PMs and product planners actually responsible for listening to user feedback are going to stop paying attention because you've hurt their feelings. Microsoft's been doing this for a long time and is used to the invective; they can take it. OTOH it seriously grates on *my* nerves seeing this stuff over and over again, maybe that's why I'm a dev and not a PM.

  • RLO

    Just a few bits to add to the conversation:

    I think it's fair to make these complaints regarding what one dislikes about what Microsoft is doing, and the way that Microsoft handles it.

    I also think it's better to be constructive.  Don't just say I hate X without first explaining your reasoning for hating X, and also offer an alternative solution.  Saying I hate X because it's X doesn't do a thing to solve the issue. Without explain why you dislike something, it does come off as whining.

    I think one of the reasons why the echo chamber has gotten so loud concerning Win 8, was that the normal feedback channels that have existed have suddenly "vanished".  MSConnect for all the good things that it does, has ultimately failed when people file feedback only to have the issue closed as design.  It often feels that the issue raised, has been dismissed out of hand without proper explanation.  After filing numerous issues to help the team work on usability items and bugs only to have them "dismissed" by design.  One stops filing the feedback when one feels that it will be ignored.  It's work to leave feedback, and when you are working for nothing you will soon stop.

    If a bug is closed for design reasons, make a post about the design, the reasons why, and the decision making process, then link to that post every time that "bug" or "ui feature" or suggestion is closed, so that someone has more to go on then just "closed".  They may not agree with the decision, but at least they understand.  I understand the building windows blogs were supposed to handle some of this, I just think that in the end it wasn't a two way conversation.  I believe the blog alienated a bunch of Microsoft users, instead of reassuring them.

    I have been one to complain in these forums before, but I always tried to be somewhat clear in what my complaints were and why I complained, and what I thought Ms should do.

    I will say that overall, Windows 8 is a step in the right direction.  I think the Surface is an awesome product, that could use just a couple of "tweaks" to be perfect.

    Channel 9 was developed and designed for the two way communication between the mothership in Redmond and the end developers and professionals.  A way to understand.  I think the company getting back to those roots will be the cornerstone of success.

     

     

     

  • elmer

    , PaoloM wrote

    And it appears that Win8 is pulling its weight. So much for the doom and gloom...

    Perhaps it is, but I would wait for the next quarter's figures before declaring it a success or failure, as the first quarter's figures after a new release are always misleading. MS claim they are shipping in volume, OEM's claim they are not selling at all... they can't both be right.

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , elmer wrote

    *snip*

    Perhaps it is, but I would wait for the next quarter's figures before declaring it a success or failure, as the first quarter's figures after a new release are always misleading. MS claim they are shipping in volume, OEM's claim they are not selling at all... they can't both be right.

    Easy: MS did sell indeed 60 Million licences to OEMs, but the OEMs have sold apparently far less than 60 Million W8 PCs (their expected number, and license order volume).

    All the available data hints to just that:

    http://money.cnn.com/2013/01/24/technology/enterprise/microsoft-earnings/index.html

    "Windows sales rose 24% to $5.8 billion in the quarter that ended Dec. 31. Microsoft unveiled its years-in-the-making Windows overhaul on Oct. 26. But [the Windows 8 launch] pales in comparison to prior launches of the operating system: Windows sales soared 76% during the quarter that Windows 7 launched, and rose by 65% when Windows Vista debuted."

    And:

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/2026165/does-windows-8s-three-month-report-card-read-pass-or-fail-.html

    Computer sales have actually dropped precipitously since Windows 8 hit the streets. NPD reports that holiday sales of Windows notebooks dropped a whopping 11 percent in 2012, while both Gartner and IDC say that overall PC sales dipped in the fourth quarter by an estimated 4.9 and 6.4 percent, respectively. Net Applications says Windows 8's user adoption lags behind Windows Vista's. All that corresponds with talk from executives at HP, Acer, Asus, Fujitsu, Newegg, and others, who have universally said that Windows 8 is off to a slower-than-expected start.

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , evildictait​or wrote

    WTWF complains [..] Vista's sidebar gadgets (that noone used) being deprecated in Windows8

    No. I complained that the service was being discontinued on Windows 7, while still being in mainstream support.

  • Dr Herbie

    @wastingtimewithforums: Ok, you've been very critical so far, but if you were given charge of MS, what would you do right now?  Win8 has launched, Win Blue is not ready yet.  What would do do with MS now?

    Herbie

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , Dr Herbie wrote

    @wastingtimewithforums: Ok, you've been very critical so far, but if you were given charge of MS, what would you do right now?  Win8 has launched, Win Blue is not ready yet.  What would do do with MS now?

    Herbie

    I've said it multiple times on this forum. But ok:

    The tragedy is, that Windows 8 could be a true "No compromise" OS which would make EVERYONE happy with just four very simple fixes:

    1. Include the start menu and the start button back. Add an option for what happens when you press on the start button (start menu or start screen). If you have chosen start menu, there should be a dedicated switch-to-metro button either in the start menu or in the task bar in the near of the clock.

    2. Let the Desktop programs be the default for files you open in the Desktop. Shouldn't be hard, since WMP and friends are still shipping with Win 8. (Just playing a darn audio file or viewing a picture means switching through completely different GUI environments multiple times and playing a mini-adventure in W8 right now)

    3. Add a Boot-to-desktop option in the control panel.

    4. Start8 and others proved that links to metro apps can be placed into a start menu. There could be a dedicated metro programs group for the occasional need for a metro app without switching to the start screen first.

    I am no Metro hater on ideology. But what we got currently is a mess. Even with Surface, if you want to create content, you want the desktop. And the classical Win 7 desktop beats the tangled Frankenstein mess that is in Windows 8 today.

    These changes are trivial to implement (freeware does it) and with Microsoft's man power, they could be included within weeks. Announce it right now that these changes are coming with a free update. This will surely increase sales of W8 licenses - so lengthen the W8 upgrade offer until the end of February for those who would buy W8 because of the promised uncripple-desktop update. This way, ALL the PC/laptop users would be happy again. And the metro lovers would still have metro if they want it. With the above simple fixes you would have the unharmed power of the Desktop and the Metro world for content consumption within one OS, - switch between them at ease just with a touch/click on dedicated button without both worlds fighting each other constantly. A true no-compromise hybrid.

    So, that's the immediate fixes for the desktop side. In the next version the appstore should be opened up for Desktop programs as well, this would solve finally the age-old problem of holey Java and Flash versions too - list them in the appstore and let them update through the appstore. Problem solved. I understand there could be a new package format needed for that.

    On the tablet side the needed changes are more longterm: All the needs for the desktop should be removed there. It's stupid to have the need to navigate to the desktop control panel for additional settings. The Desktop CP should get again the full power of the W7 CP (right now you can add users only through the metro version.. yuck) and the metro version should be vastly expanded so that you can change all settings within just one version without shuffling between them constantly.

    Sideloading of the metro apps needs to be possible, this would calm down developers quite a bit. The prices for the Windows Store for developers need to go down too. 20$ one-time fee for registration and a 20% standard fee and a 15% fee once the app reaches a certain download count. Stop with the senseless Apple-envy here and get real.

    Expand the metro apps in ability to make them a bit more attractive for non-tablets as well. Right now they are an utter joke in this area. Many fixes can be included without breaking the sandbox one iota (multi-tasking, windowing etc.). Seriously, freeware like Bluestacks and Pokki offer a far more sane "appy" experience for the traditional Windows form factors than Windows itself does! Pokki's start menu is a far better blend of "apps" and programs for PC users than the start screen as well. The whole handling of the metro apps for multiple users needs to be fixed too, there should be a "global install" function. Right now you need to install them per user and update them per user.

    Vastly expand the default apps; they are just embarrassing. Some of them look as if they consist of two code-lines. The whole metro-ideology needs to get a lot less anal too. The "design first, convenience second" thing serves no one. Stop with the obsession of hiding buttons and functions.

    Start de-uglifying Office 2013 and Visual Studio 2012 immediately (colors aren't bad, M'kay) and promise free updates for the GUIs in these products. All this could roll-in with a huge "We have listened!" - campaign.

Comments closed

Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.