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Microsoft still in denial

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  • brian.​shapiro

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    *snip*

    I have no problems with the Metro UI on phones too (where it belongs, frankly), just my theory why it isn't selling as much. Actually, I wish it well. If WP7 would have been a runaway success, maybe MS wouldn't do PR stunts like Win8.

    XBox is Metro-ish too, so you'll have to explain that. WP always has had an uphill battle, especially when you had phone salesmen trying to convince you you didn't want it (I personally ran into that at a Sprint store).

    Microsoft is also developing WinRT (as an API) for a pretty good reason. WPF turned out too big and slow. I personally expect WinRT and WPF to merge later on down the line, and WinRT to come to the desktop.

    Don't be so negative about everything.

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , brian.​shapiro wrote

    *snip*

    XBox is Metro-ish too

    Only recently though. The GUI is also not exactly the most important thing about a game console.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , TexasToast wrote

    *snip*

    I think you are confusing Windows RT with Surface.   Surface uses Windows RT but is compiled for ARM processors but Windows RT could compile for Intel as it always has.  

    Windows RT is a glorified Interop layer to Windows System calls that make it easier to program to system level API's and cuts down on the fat of having a .Net library for everything.  Right now they limited it for these so called Windows store apps.   I expect it to expand for desktop apps too.     The performance should be better.    It might stink a little on arm in some instances but that has more to do with porting windows system to ARM than using Windows RT.

    It's not me who is confused. Lesson 1.

    , spivonious wrote

    I'll say it again, Windows RT is not an "also ran". It's a perfectly viable competitor to Android and iPad. Performance is perfectly acceptable. An off-the-shelf ARM SOC is not going to perform as well as an Apple-tuned SOC in the iPad. 

    A competitor with less apps and slower performance. You can spin the latter all you want. Slower is slower. Microsoft needed to come out of the gate with better than not also-ran.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , brian.​shapiro wrote

    *snip*

    I personally expect WinRT and WPF to merge later on down the line

    Isn't that what people were saying about WPF and SL?

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • evildictait​or

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

     competitor with less apps and slower performance.

    FFS.

    fewer apps.

  • TexasToast

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    It's not me who is confused. Lesson 1.

    *snip*

    Yes I was wrong and confused Windows RT (which is windows 8 on ARM) versus WinRT which is the API on windows 8.   I blame Microsoft marketing for my confusion and fortunately they fired Sinofsky who created this and now we go into cleanup. 

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    FFS.

    fewer apps.

    They are lesser and fewer and sadder. That's the bestest I can explains it. Wink

    , TexasToast wrote

    *snip*

    Yes I was wrong and confused Windows RT (which is windows 8 on ARM) versus WinRT which is the API on windows 8.   I blame Microsoft marketing for my confusion and fortunately they fired Sinofsky who created this and now we go into cleanup. 

    Clearly underlying the confusing mess that the brands and terms Microsoft has selected for Windows 8... If a developer can't keep it straight then how does Joe Schmo? 

    Mommy, I want my Windows 8 Store App and I want it now!

    When it comes to Microsoft brands there are some things worse than death.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • Sven Groot

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    If a developer can't keep it straight then how does Joe Schmo? 

    This particular one isn't a problem for regular folks, because they don't know about the WinRT API.

  • spivonious

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    A competitor with less apps and slower performance. You can spin the latter all you want. Slower is slower. Microsoft needed to come out of the gate with better than not also-ran.

    There are lots of pieces that are "better than". The whole idea of Charms and inter-app sharing and searching. Live tiles on the start screen. Picture password (the feature my wife enjoys showing off the most).

    The apps will come in time. Windows is too big for devs to ignore, and the API is super easy to use.

    And I really haven't seen any performance issues. Granted, she's not playing 3D shooters, but that's not really a tablet's target market.

  • wastingtime​withforums

    Talking point:

    http://www.neowin.net/news/did-sinofsky-kill-off-windows-7-tablet-design

    Sure, it's just stupid neowin comments, but if only half of it is true what the user "thenetavenger" is claiming in the comment section, then Sinofsky was/is a tool..

    Well, I always had the opinion that Sinofsky was overrated.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , Sven Groot wrote

    *snip*

    This particular one isn't a problem for regular folks, because they don't know about the WinRT API.

    I'm talking about all of the terms and branding not just WinRT. They were cleaver enough to come up with Metro. Why not something better than Windows 8 Store App?

    RE: Windows RT/WinRT I see both of these terms used interchangeably. For the user it doesn't matter but the differentiations of Windows 8 vs. Windows 8 RT is a concern. I wish they would have called it something like Windows 8 Tablet or something that distinguished better from the Intel version.

    , spivonious wrote

    *snip*

    There are lots of pieces that are "better than". The whole idea of Charms and inter-app sharing and searching. Live tiles on the start screen. Picture password (the feature my wife enjoys showing off the most).

    Android has both a search and share feature that I'm sure the latter was the basis for W8's share. There's no advantage in W8 as the knuckleheads didn't extend it to the desktop.

    Live tiles are a hot mess. It's hard to distinguish one from another as many use photos for the time and do not include a clear icon or name on the tile. Furthermore when your screen changes resolution (i.e. when you dock you tablet and use and external display) the tiles all get shifted and the landmarks you relied on are lost. They learned nothing from the issue of icons on the desktop and changing resolutions; another opportunity lost.

    Picture password makes for great commercials but like most Christmas presents it becomes unappreciated quickly.

    The apps will come in time. Windows is too big for devs to ignore, and the API is super easy to use.

    I don't think you're going to see a lot of desktop productivity apps "re-imagined" as Windows 8 Store Apps because the Windows 8 Store App environment isn't productive.

    And I really haven't seen any performance issues. Granted, she's not playing 3D shooters, but that's not really a tablet's target market.

    Try Office. It sucks and is the one differentiator that WinRT actually offers.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • spivonious

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    Android has both a search and share feature that I'm sure the latter was the basis for W8's share. There's no advantage in W8 as the knuckleheads didn't extend it to the desktop.

    Can you provide a link for this? Android lets any app let the OS that it can be a share target, and then other apps automatically get the ability to share to it? This is a feature that has huge potential on W8. Same with search. I can be in any app, open the Search charm, type my search terms and then choose any other searchable app. This is great when I'm on the web, read about a certain app, and then can immediately search the Store for it.

    I agree that not having the charms for desktop apps is a missed opportunity, but the devs would have had to rewrite their apps to support it anyway.

    Live tiles are a hot mess. It's hard to distinguish one from another as many use photos for the time and do not include a clear icon or name on the tile. Furthermore when your screen changes resolution (i.e. when you dock you tablet and use and external display) the tiles all get shifted and the landmarks you relied on are lost. They learned nothing from the issue of icons on the desktop and changing resolutions; another opportunity lost.

    Yes, the icons/names need to be bigger on the tiles. I do confuse the Photos, News, and Travel apps, as they all scroll through images.

    Most people aren't going to be docking their tablets to larger screens. They'll have a PC and a tablet. What solution would you propose? I'd rather have the UI shift to support the higher resolution than stay a static grid of three tile-high columns.

    Picture password makes for great commercials but like most Christmas presents it becomes unappreciated quickly.

    Tell that to my wife. It's much easier to unlock a tablet with some gestures than typing in a password.

    I don't think you're going to see a lot of desktop productivity apps "re-imagined" as Windows 8 Store Apps because the Windows 8 Store App environment isn't productive.

    There is no reason that Metro can't support productivity apps.

    Try Office. It sucks and is the one differentiator that WinRT actually offers.

    Office runs fine. We haven't seen the delayed typing issue in Word that I've seen on Youtube. I'm starting to wonder if the Surface has an outdated firmware.

  • spivonious

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    Talking point:

    http://www.neowin.net/news/did-sinofsky-kill-off-windows-7-tablet-design

    Sure, it's just stupid neowin comments, but if only half of it is true what the user "thenetavenger" is claiming in the comment section, then Sinofsky was/is a tool..

    Well, I always had the opinion that Sinofsky was overrated.

    That doesn't make any sense, as Windows 7 had full touch support and several tablets were released with it.

  • evildictait​or

    , spivonious wrote

    There is no reason that Metro can't support productivity apps.

    The same could be said of iPad apps, and yet in the many years they've been out, the iPad is still heavilly consumer-orientated with a genuinely weak offering to people that want to produce content.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , spivonious wrote

    *snip*

    Can you provide a link for this? Android lets any app let the OS that it can be a share target, and then other apps automatically get the ability to share to it? This is a feature that has huge potential on W8. Same with search. I can be in any app, open the Search charm, type my search terms and then choose any other searchable app. This is great when I'm on the web, read about a certain app, and then can immediately search the Store for it.

    It's been a fundamental feature of Android for a long time. In an app? Bring up the options menus and select Share. It lists all app registered to share. To search any content providers on the device use the built in search feature (the spyglass icon) and it searches them all; contacts, calendar, web, etc. You want a web link for Android 101? Help yourself. I heard Bing works pretty good.

    I agree that not having the charms for desktop apps is a missed opportunity, but the devs would have had to rewrite their apps to support it anyway.

    The dev's having to add support for it in their apps is no excuse for Microsoft to not offer it. If it was release as part of the dev preview I'm sure a lot of the big players would have added to newer releases of their software (i.e. Office). If anything this hints to the desktop being legacy.

    Most people aren't going to be docking their tablets to larger screens. They'll have a PC and a tablet. What solution would you propose? I'd rather have the UI shift to support the higher resolution than stay a static grid of three tile-high columns.

    And IMO that ignores the biggest differentiator that Surface (and Windows 8 in general) has over the competition; replace your desktop with a tablet, create and consume.

    [facepalm] Why or why do people have to make icon/tile shifting such an unsolvable problem?!?!? Just have it remember the layout on a per resolution basis (docked/undocked). Anything new added that wasn't part of the saved view state gets put to the end of the grouping and the user will have to move it to where they want it for that resolution. After all they should be used to moving tiles with all of the f'ing grooming the start screen requires anyway.

    Office runs fine. We haven't seen the delayed typing issue in Word that I've seen on Youtube. I'm starting to wonder if the Surface has an outdated firmware.

    Whatever they had a Best Buy was laggy as hell in Office. Firmware is no excuse for Microsoft to not put out their best offering.

  • wastingtime​withforums

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57552196-75/analysts-turn-negative-on-windows-8-prospects/

    ------

    The first reason Deutsche Bank listed today for cutting its PC estimates this quarter was a "lackluster initial uptake of Windows 8," in a research note from analyst Chris Whitmore.

    After citing the impact of amorphous factors like "macro weakness" and the "fiscal cliff," Whitmore continues. As in past cycles we expect the introduction of a new Microsoft OS to spur an increase in PC demand. However...we believe Win8 will have a more muted impact than prior cycles for a several reasons: 1) Win8 reviews are mixed due to a confusing UI; 2) there is a lack of Enterprise interest in Window 8; 3) tablet form factor complicates positioning (Win8 vs. Windows RT), 4) continued substitution of PCs by iPads/tablets 4).

    Windows 8's "confusing UI", aka user interface, is becoming a theme for analysts. Usability expert Jakob Nielsen said essentially the same thing today in a report.

    And Topeka Capital Markets chimed in, saying Windows 8 orders have been weak.

    "Much lower than...PC makers originally expected a few months ago," according to Topeka analyst Brian White.

    Computerworld, which has tracked usage patterns of Windows 8 in the months leading up to, and including, the launch, found that the new operating system "is being run by less than a fifth as many people as ran Windows 7 in the same months before its debut."

    --------

    This is getting too hot to handle. After the so-so reviews of Windows 8 and Surface, there's now a barrage of articles about the rumours of bad sales, the whole Sinofsky affair, the "bad usability" article by Nielsen is making its round (Deja vu.. remember Gutmann's Vista DRM article? Only this time the issues are real!) the Amazon.com reviews are reaching a catatrophic state.. it's bad! You can't deny that the current atmosphere for Windows 8 is nothing short of catastrophic. And it will get worse once the special offer prices will go up to normal state. (MS can't keep them forever this low I think)

    It's getting worse than Vista. And for a good reason. I have listed in this thread enough Win8 failings, I won't repeat that huge list again.

    Microsoft needs to counteract NOW. Promise a free "Classic Desktop Pack" that puts Win8 into a usable state for the vast majority of customers and get starting on it now. Clear up the desktop developer story ASAP (will WPF be revived or wil WinRT be enhanced to run on the desktop and be an able replacement of WPF? [no "one window only" crap!]), get a desktop version of the store maybe (on the desktop it must be an optional, not mandatory-one! Unless they want another shitstorm).

    On the tablet side Microsoft should adding up immediately the missing bits so that tablet-only users don't need to jiggle between the metro and desktop side back and forth (control panel!). Announce it now that these are coming up for free.

    The whole pseudo no-compromise stuff idea has been a catastrophic failure, they need to act. And they need to act now. And they need to swallow their pride over this.

  • cbae

    So-so reviews? Like this one?

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , cbae wrote

    So-so reviews? Like this one?

    And those were countered by reviews like these:

    http://www.infoworld.com/d/microsoft-windows/windows-8-review-yes-its-bad-200113

    There are some enthusiastic ones, but also some extremely negative ones. Most fall somewhere in the middle, that's called "so-so".

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