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Microsoft still in denial

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  • User profile image
    Retro​Recursion
  • User profile image
    contextfree`

    Man, I'll be so glad when they finally do announce win.next so you guys will at least have something new to complain about.

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    Deactivated User

    Comment removed at user's request.

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    , contextfree` wrote

    Man, I'll be so glad when they finally do announce win.next so you guys will at least have something new to complain about.

    Almost tempted to create some bogus news story and wait for several bloggers to quote a few lines out of context just for the sake of distracting the trolls.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @MasterPie: If only the complaints were bogus...

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    Skeptical

    Well, just joined here because I am totally confused with Win8. All I read is about Apps, UI, touchscreen etc. Can anybody tell me how to use it for my company: data entry, correspondence, invoicing, etc. I understand there is a time to play, browse, look at photos, play games, but there is 8 hours a day (for many) during which they need to enter some sort of data as fast as possible .......

    What I have seen so far makes me really dump all PC's and switch to the other side. Less upgrades, service packs, hotfixes and what more

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    , Skeptical wrote

    Well, just joined here because I am totally confused with Win8. All I read is about Apps, UI, touchscreen etc. Can anybody tell me how to use it for my company: data entry, correspondence, invoicing, etc. I understand there is a time to play, browse, look at photos, play games, but there is 8 hours a day (for many) during which they need to enter some sort of data as fast as possible .......

    What I have seen so far makes me really dump all PC's and switch to the other side. Less upgrades, service packs, hotfixes and what more

    Do you know how Windows 7 works?

    Same thing, only faster and the start menu is bigger.

    Oh, and the constant flow of 500Mb "patches" from "the other side" will get very old very fast, trust me.

  • User profile image
    Retro​Recursion

    @Skeptical: It is frustrating that the direction Windows 8 is going seems like a less productive environment for work.

    Even on the desktop, they have made it difficult to "activate" .NET for applications. We dealt with this for several weeks trying to find a way to install (or activate it in the case of Win8) when installing our LOB app. Yes, you can go to the Windows features and check a few boxes to get it installed, but it was far too confusing for general users to navigate that. We had to jump through some crazy hoops, and cost us thousands of $$, to get our installer to activate that for them. Why would MS make it so difficult to activate the framework that they promote at the center of their development world?

    So I have a hard time buying into the thinking that Win8 is just the same as Win7 on the desktop side. And forget the thought of making your LOB applications work in the "Modern" UI framework. All of the videos and talks about this from Microsoft have left me scratching my head. None of them seem to go beyond what I would consider a dashboard. Where are the stock trading or ERP apps that really get work done? Everything I've seen (like the app from SAP) are nothing more than a fancy dashboard. If they want all us developers to move to that environment, where are the real productivity apps that we can look to as models? I'm really looking for answers here!

  • User profile image
    Dr Herbie

    , Visible = False wrote

    *snip*

    Even on the desktop, they have made it difficult to "activate" .NET for applications. We dealt with this for several weeks trying to find a way to install (or activate it in the case of Win8) when installing our LOB app. Yes, you can go to the Windows features and check a few boxes to get it installed, but it was far too confusing for general users to navigate that. We had to jump through some crazy hoops, and cost us thousands of $$, to get our installer to activate that for them. Why would MS make it so difficult to activate the framework that they promote at the center of their development world?

    Well that's worrying.  Fortunately for us, our customers have only just made the transition to Win7 from XP, so I guess I'll just have to keep my finger crossed that there is some solution to this before they upgrade to Win8 (or Win.next by the time they get around to it). It does feel like MS are trying for force us to the latest dev technology by making it harder to work with what we previously had. We are not going to take the hit of rewriting our entire LOB application just make make it easier to install on a new dev platform, we will just have to tell our customers not to upgrade.

    , Visible = False wrote

    *snip*

    All of the videos and talks about this from Microsoft have left me scratching my head. None of them seem to go beyond what I would consider a dashboard. Where are the stock trading or ERP apps that really get work done? Everything I've seen (like the app from SAP) are nothing more than a fancy dashboard. If they want all us developers to move to that environment, where are the real productivity apps that we can look to as models? I'm really looking for answers here!

    I have thought this too -- Store Apps seem to be small, highly specialised application, not LOB apps like our 300+ form monstrosity.  I have also yet to see a data-entry grid in a Store App, so we have no examples as to how this might perform.

     

    Herbie

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    evildictait​or

    , Skeptical wrote

    Less upgrades, service packs, hotfixes and what more

    fewer upgrades, service packs, hotfixes and what more

  • User profile image
    Bas

    , Visible = False wrote

    So I have a hard time buying into the thinking that Win8 is just the same as Win7 on the desktop side. And forget the thought of making your LOB applications work in the "Modern" UI framework. All of the videos and talks about this from Microsoft have left me scratching my head. None of them seem to go beyond what I would consider a dashboard. Where are the stock trading or ERP apps that really get work done? Everything I've seen (like the app from SAP) are nothing more than a fancy dashboard. If they want all us developers to move to that environment, where are the real productivity apps that we can look to as models? I'm really looking for answers here!

    Haven't they always stated that this is what desktop apps are for?

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , Visible = False wrote

    And forget the thought of making your LOB applications work in the "Modern" UI framework.

     

    ...

    Where are the stock trading or ERP apps that really get work done?

    ...

    If they want all us developers to move to that environment, where are the real productivity apps that we can look to as models? I'm really looking for answers here!

    I don't get this. Metro apps were never supposed to be a replacement for "normal" desktop apps. They were supposed to regain ground from smartphones.

    The only people saying that "Metro is the future" and the "desktop is deprecated" are people who haven't engaged their brain or have bought into a lot of FUD being slung around the Internet (there's a lot of people who construct scenarios whereby Microsoft "fails" just to revel in it).

    Win8 still runs apps written for Win95. Apps written for the Win8 desktop will still work long after you have run out of customers for your current offering 10 years from now on Win13.

    The reason Microsoft isn't talking about or providing huge support for LOB apps in Metro-land is because Microsoft don't think that LOB apps are a good fit to the metro model.

    Metro is for games (like angry-birds), tablet apps (like finger painting) and for dashboards. The reason it's hard for you to move a 300-form LOB app to Metro is because it doesn't fit there, and nor was it ever supposed to.

    The only market you lose by not re-writing your app to Metro is the tablet market. But if your app is almost certainly going to suffer and die on a tablet anyway (because it's huge, doesn't support touch and the whole design isn't tablet orientated) then you're not really losing anything by being unable to deploy it on WinRT - and even if you did care enough about that market, there's always the Win8 Pro tablets.

  • User profile image
    Dr Herbie

    @evildictaitor: I guess I've let myself fall into the usual trap of placing too much importance on the new stuff because that's all we're really hearing about from MS at the moment.

    Herbie

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    I don't get this. Metro apps were never supposed to be a replacement for "normal" desktop apps. They were supposed to regain ground from smartphones.

    The only people saying that "Metro is the future" and the "desktop is deprecated" are people who haven't engaged their brain or have bought into a lot of FUD being slung around the Internet (there's a lot of people who construct scenarios whereby Microsoft "fails" just to revel in it).

    Win8 still runs apps written for Win95. Apps written for the Win8 desktop will still work long after you have run out of customers for your current offering 10 years from now on Win13.

    The reason Microsoft isn't talking about or providing huge support for LOB apps in Metro-land is because Microsoft don't think that LOB apps are a good fit to the metro model.

    Metro is for games (like angry-birds), tablet apps (like finger painting) and for dashboards. The reason it's hard for you to move a 300-form LOB app to Metro is because it doesn't fit there, and nor was it ever supposed to.

    Well, maybe Microsoft should stop making the lifes of desktop users miserable then? We all saw more of enough rants of all the various, real unpleasant issues Win8 brings to the desktop.

    If the desktop is just as much "the future" as Metro, then Microsoft shouldn't treat it like the red haired stepchild. And no one * cares about "UI unification", because the way it's done in Windows 8 is full of stupid compromises. Most of the desktop issues could be solved quite easily, even with Metro on top. It's only Microsoft stubbornness that is at fault here, not a design necessity.

    Windows 8 is schizo. All this talk about how the desktop, Win32 and "classic" .NET are still highly important, yet the OS does everything to marginalize those and make them a hassle to use.

    And as long as this is the case, the "negativity" surrounding Windows 8 will persist.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    Well, maybe Microsoft should stop making the lifes of desktop users miserable then?

    Oh, for heaven's sake, give it a rest.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    Oh, for heaven's sake, give it a rest.

    What, are they imagined? I could write right now another huge monster posts going through them all. How many more of these do you need to acknowledge that Win8 has real issues for the desktop user? Not even a bad 90s Linux distro would be mad enough to throw a desktop user into a fullscreen application with no visible way to exit it just for playing a video/audio file (and when you found it, it doesn't even throw you back from where you started)

    Are visible = false's .NET issues on Win8 imagined as well?

    Sure, you can avert most of these with hacks and third party solutions, but that's an insane thing to do for an "upgrade".

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    evildictait​or

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    I could write right now another huge monster posts going through them all.

    And you have done so many times before. All of which have resulted in the same response from Microsoft - i.e. they ignore you.

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. So instead of writing the same rant over and over and over again, please either try to lighten up and say something positive or at least something new.

    You might not remember, but I distinctly recall Windows 95 being dismissed for being "not suitable for productivity users", Windows XP being lambasted for it's "blue kid-like play-area ballooney windows that shows Microsoft is not taking business seriously", Windows Vista being described as "the final nail in the coffin of Microsoft" and Windows 7 as "yet another installment of an increasingly irrelevant franchise."

    Guess what? Microsoft still has more money than it can shake a stick at.

    Windows8 isn't the end of Microsoft. It isn't the worst thing since sliced bread. It doesn't make it impossible to do the stuff you want to do, and the loss of the start menu isn't "yet another critical feature removed".

    The reason Microsoft ignores you is because you make no distinction between actually important defects and completely irrelevant ones; for example - nobody gives the slightest little bit of a damn that Sidebar Gadgets are missing, and yet you turned that into a multi-page rant about the decline of Microsoft.

    Windows8 is not free of flaws. But until you learn to nuance its important defects and acknowledge its achievements, nobody gives a crap about whether you think Microsoft is due to go bankrupt because of the international love affair that ordinary people have with their start menu.

    So please, for the sake of everyone, give it a rest. Because at the moment, all you're doing is shouting into the wind.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    And you have done so many times before. All of which have resulted in the same response from Microsoft - i.e. they ignore you.

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. So instead of writing the same rant over and over and over again, please either try to lighten up and say something positive or at least something new.

    You might not remember, but I distinctly recall Windows 95 being dismissed for being "not suitable for productivity users", Windows XP being lambasted for it's "blue kid-like play-area ballooney windows that shows Microsoft is not taking business seriously", Windows Vista being described as "the final nail in the coffin of Microsoft" and Windows 7 as "yet another installment of an increasingly irrelevant franchise."

    And I've covered these points too.

     

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    Guess what? Microsoft still has more money than it can shake a stick at.

    Windows8 isn't the end of Microsoft. It isn't the worst thing since sliced bread. It doesn't make it impossible to do the stuff you want to do, and the loss of the start menu isn't "yet another critical feature removed".

    Win95 came with the old GUI, with WinXP it took ten seconds to make all the blue go away (many businesses ran it with the 2000 style UI without issues). Windows 8 is different, there is no backward option, because it seems that Microsoft is this time afraid that too many people have real issues with the GUI, and they removed any sane go back options (without third party hacks that is). And the start screen is only one item in the problem list anyway.

    , evildictait​or wrote

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome.

    And you aren't guilty of the same? Look who's talking! You're replying to pretty much all the Windows 8 posts, but instead of adressing the issues all your replys are essentially "yea, so? F* off". You are more insane than me.

    Who's more insane, the graffiti sprayer or the one who desperately sprays some meaningless tag on every graffiti of that sprayer?

    I was pretty much finished with this thread anyway, it got resurrected without my influence.

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