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Microsoft: we won't do a tablet OS until its distinctive

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  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    , exoteric wrote

    *snip*

    "This just in: company refuses to shoot itself in its foot; and in related news: company plans to produce useable product!" Wink

    Let's just assume common-sense is at work here, shall we? Smiley

    Tablets require different UX's - hopefully noone thinks there's a one-size fits all. For that matter even mainstream operating systems could use new UI metaphors. We've been stuck with the same basic UI metaphors for ages, with only minor revisions. Surely there's room for improvement between here and Minority Report without too much ingenuity needed. Also, Android is doing some good things in the UX space (as is WP7), so I can't imagine the next version of Windows in a UX status quo. The new taskbar is nice, but still a minor revision on my oppinion.

    I think there could be a UX adaptive to both tablet and desktop use. The Metro look certainly looks good (and visually presents information well) in either case, and adjusting between the two scenarios might just require a few tweaks.

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    -duplicate-

  • User profile image
    kettch

    @brian.shapiro: The biggest issue between desktop and tablet versions of a UI might end up being the layout engine. If the controls and forms can intelligently resize and reflow themselves to be finger friendly and mouse friendly depending on the circumstances, then the same UI might work.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    I think it is extremely hard to make Windows "true" tablet friendly. Mainly because of the backward compatibility. I really don't understand why Balmer would want Win8 as front of the tablet market when WinPh is a much better and obvious choice.

    To my understanding, people use tablet only check website, stream videos, personal notes, and other non-business non-work related tasks. Non-work means it is not something like turbo tax, your own expense sheet, etc. Non-business means it is not for business routines, dose not include "Sales Rep" where they need to show off with finger friendly power point slides.

    I understand Windows itself needs to catch up, but, that would be very challanging and takes much more time. They can think about merging the tablet specific os back to Windows (since same SL) later. But, they got to take the market right now. It is like Win95 and WinNT, you need two families before you can merge them together. They should start a new branch and merge it back later.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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    kettch

    @magicalclick:I did my taxes on my tablet while watching TV. I guess my point is that I use my tablet for everything from lightweight information consumption purposes to business/work related tasks. My ideal device is going to give me both in way that makes sense and lets me move back and forth between the two interface styles.

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    @magicalclick:

    Once you get used to the idea that a tablet can be a media creation and not just media consumption device, there are a lot of uses. Graphics creation, whether vector based or bitmap based, for instance. You want to be able to use photoshop/illustrator in touch mode, without having to buy a separate device or buy a separate version of CS5 for both tablet and desktop.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @kettch:

    I am beaten

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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    Ray7

    , magicalclick wrote

    I think it is extremely hard to make Windows "true" tablet friendly. Mainly because of the backward compatibility. I really don't understand why Balmer would want Win8 as front of the tablet market when WinPh is a much better and obvious choice.

    In a word: Office.

    This is the product upon which keeps Microsoft relevant and swimming in cash. Folk still use and buy Office, mainly because it is a good package (though I'm starting to find it overpriced and a little bit heavy) and because it is the most reliable way to view and edit almost two decades worth of documents written in previous versions of Office.

    Now if you believe what the pundits tell you then desktops/laptops are going to give way to tablets for the majority of uses, which means Microsoft is currently at the head of a monopoly market with decreasing relevance. 

    What they don't want is to find themselves forced into virgin territory and have to fight competitors like Apple and Google. Apple especially who are championing smaller, nimbler, focussed applications with a consumer-friendly price tag. Microsoft doesn't reaallly want to smaller and tightly-focussed; their expertise is monolithic and expensive. So if they have to move into this strange new world then they would like to take monolithic, expensive and as much of the monopoly with them as they can. This means a full-blown office suite running on a tablet, and that means a full-blown OS to carry it.

    From a business point of view this makes sense: it's safe to assume that WP7 sales are nowhere near the sales of Android or the iPhone. At the same time, it's a safe bet that the number of of Windows7 machines deployed already dwarfs the entire Mac user base (and that's not counting the number of Macs that run Windows pretty much full time). So if you were Balmer, wouldn't you try to take as much of that influence with you?

    Whether this is best for consumers or Microsoft I'm not sure. We shall wait and see. 

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , Ray7 wrote

    *snip*

    From a business point of view this makes sense: it's safe to assume that WP7 sales are nowhere near the sales of Android or the iPhone. At the same time, it's a safe bet that the number of of Windows7 machines deployed already dwarfs the entire Mac user base (and that's not counting the number of Macs that run Windows pretty much full time). So if you were Balmer, wouldn't you try to take as much of that influence with you?

    Whether this is best for consumers or Microsoft I'm not sure. We shall wait and see. 

    The assumption here is that Windows 7 machines will continue to dwarf Macs and more importantly phones and tablets that unhitch users from the Windows world. Sure PCs will be with us for quite some time but their cash cow is going to be giving quite a bit less milk in the future IMO. Balmer would rather rest on Microsoft's laurals just like Bill did with the Internet. When people think of the Internet they immediatly think of Microsoft right? No, I'm afraid pr0n has one once again... Wink

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    , Ray7 wrote

    *snip*

    In a word: Office.

    This is the product upon which keeps Microsoft relevant and swimming in cash. Folk still use and buy Office, mainly because it is a good package (though I'm starting to find it overpriced and a little bit heavy) and because it is the most reliable way to view and edit almost two decades worth of documents written in previous versions of Office.

    Now if you believe what the pundits tell you then desktops/laptops are going to give way to tablets for the majority of uses, which means Microsoft is currently at the head of a monopoly market with decreasing relevance. 

    What they don't want is to find themselves forced into virgin territory and have to fight competitors like Apple and Google. Apple especially who are championing smaller, nimbler, focussed applications with a consumer-friendly price tag. Microsoft doesn't reaallly want to smaller and tightly-focussed; their expertise is monolithic and expensive. So if they have to move into this strange new world then they would like to take monolithic, expensive and as much of the monopoly with them as they can. This means a full-blown office suite running on a tablet, and that means a full-blown OS to carry it.

    From a business point of view this makes sense: it's safe to assume that WP7 sales are nowhere near the sales of Android or the iPhone. At the same time, it's a safe bet that the number of of Windows7 machines deployed already dwarfs the entire Mac user base (and that's not counting the number of Macs that run Windows pretty much full time). So if you were Balmer, wouldn't you try to take as much of that influence with you?

    Whether this is best for consumers or Microsoft I'm not sure. We shall wait and see. 

    They've already made scaled down versions of Office in different formats. They could easily retool WP and Office for WP to a tablet form if they really want to. There are plenty of skeptics on the future of the iPad model though, including myself, even though its popular among bloggers.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    , brian.​shapiro wrote

    *snip*

    They've already made scaled down versions of Office in different formats. They could easily retool WP and Office for WP to a tablet form if they really want to.

    Scaling down will only work when you are simply providing added options to existing product.

    The unique selling proposition that Microsoft is trying for is legacy. If they go head to head with Apple and/or Google then they will lose. WP7 on its own doesn't have enough to beat them. When folk see it they think 'Well, none of my apps will work, and all my files are going to lose all that nice formatting, so why not go to a more mature platform and start again?'

    This is why MS is obsessed with cramming the desktop into a tablet, because it enables them to use legacy to shield them from the competition.

    There are plenty of skeptics on the future of the iPad model though, including myself, even though its popular among bloggers.

    Well, I'm seeing iPads and laptops in pretty equal numbers now, though I still can't say I completely understand what the attraction is.

     

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    , Ray7 wrote

    Well, I'm seeing iPads and laptops in pretty equal numbers now, though I still can't say I completely understand what the attraction is.

    For how long? Most people who'd want laptops already own them and would only buy a new one to upgrade. The iPad is still a new device.

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    I have an Asus convertable tablet that is more than 4 years old now but it still works great with Windows 7. I use it every day on my train commute to work on VS projects. I also use it with OneNote to sketch out ideas related to programming (visualizing collision detection for my 3D game engine, making framework diagrams, etc), as well as all sorts of other drawing related purposes. I can't use an iPad like that (in spite of there being aftermarket "styluses (styli?)" for it that doesn't function nearly as well as an RF stylus since they need to simulate a fingertip and all have fat tips).

    I really do hope that whatever MS comes up with for their "Immersive Tablet UI", retains stylus support. Traditional Windows tablets didn't fail because of stylus support, it failed because it had a $500 - $600 price premium and there just weren't enough stylus-only apps that justified such a price premium. I believe there is a whole category of applications that would be very popular to use with a stylus if the hardware is cheap enough and good enough to become popular. If the iPad had true stylus support, I think there would have been a lot of apps that took advantage of that (why would there be an iPad-stylus aftermarket if there wasn't any demand?). MS could have an advantage over the iPad if they create a dumbed-down and easy to use tablet like the iPad but still gave it pen support.

    In addition, I think it is time MS creates their own tablet hardware. Going through OEMs only dilutes the "vision" MS has for a tablet. MS should still license the OS to any OEM that wants it, but with a true "reference" MS tablet out there, they will no longer be able to release sub-par hardware and think they can compete. And with the current low marketshare of Windows tablets, I don't see why this could trigger antitrust issues. Apple is clearly dominating this market right now, and everyone is fine with them having a much more closed tablet than MS would ever have.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , brian.​shapiro wrote

    *snip*

    There are plenty of skeptics on the future of the iPad model though, including myself, even though its popular among bloggers.

    And there are WMDs in Iraq too. Microsoft would love for this problem to just go away but it won't. Balmer said the iPhone was a fad. Bill didn't pay attention to the internet. How many times is Microsoft going to make the same lack-of-vision mistake? Microsoft has a lot of great talent and has shown it's capable of putting out some really great software but always seems to lack  vision at the top. I thought that problem was fixed when Ray Ozzie joined Microsoft but now that he's gone IMO Microsoft will continue to just not get it. Window 8 will ship on ARM driven slates in a year or two, will run like crap relative to their competition, and Microsoft will label them as a success (Yeah! Windows runs on ARM!) rather than look at the sales numbers. When they do they'll say "well we still own the desktop". At that point people will have worked around not having Office on their tablets and Microsoft will be left holding a marginalized set of products. Of course that's just my opinion...

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    And there are WMDs in Iraq too. Microsoft would love for this problem to just go away but it won't. Balmer said the iPhone was a fad. Bill didn't pay attention to the internet. How many times is Microsoft going to make the same lack-of-vision mistake? Microsoft has a lot of great talent and has shown it's capable of putting out some really great software but always seems to lack  vision at the top. I thought that problem was fixed when Ray Ozzie joined Microsoft but now that he's gone IMO Microsoft will continue to just not get it. Window 8 will ship on ARM driven slates in a year or two, will run like crap relative to their competition, and Microsoft will label them as a success (Yeah! Windows runs on ARM!) rather than look at the sales numbers. When they do they'll say "well we still own the desktop". At that point people will have worked around not having Office on their tablets and Microsoft will be left holding a marginalized set of products. Of course that's just my opinion...

    Bill said he didn't pay attention to the Internet, but IE1 was planned as part of the Windows 95 Plus! Pack even before Netscape was released. So I always saw that claim as a bit of false modesty. I think they were hoping MSN/Blackbird would take off faster than the Internet.

     

  • User profile image
    brian.​shapiro

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    And there are WMDs in Iraq too. Microsoft would love for this problem to just go away but it won't. Balmer said the iPhone was a fad. Bill didn't pay attention to the internet. How many times is Microsoft going to make the same lack-of-vision mistake? Microsoft has a lot of great talent and has shown it's capable of putting out some really great software but always seems to lack  vision at the top. I thought that problem was fixed when Ray Ozzie joined Microsoft but now that he's gone IMO Microsoft will continue to just not get it. Window 8 will ship on ARM driven slates in a year or two, will run like crap relative to their competition, and Microsoft will label them as a success (Yeah! Windows runs on ARM!) rather than look at the sales numbers. When they do they'll say "well we still own the desktop". At that point people will have worked around not having Office on their tablets and Microsoft will be left holding a marginalized set of products. Of course that's just my opinion...

    Bill said he didn't pay attention to the Internet, but IE1 was planned as part of the Windows 95 Plus! Pack even before Netscape was released. So I always saw that claim as a bit of false modesty. I think they were hoping MSN/Blackbird would take off faster than the Internet.

     

  • User profile image
    Bass

    , brian.​shapiro wrote

    *snip*

    Bill said he didn't pay attention to the Internet, but IE1 was planned as part of the Windows 95 Plus! Pack even before Netscape was released. So I always saw that claim as a bit of false modesty. I think they were hoping MSN/Blackbird would take off faster than the Internet.

     

     

    I wonder how close we were to having the Internet be a academic thing and a closed network like MSN or AOL taking over in the 90s. Scary to even think about. Expressionless

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    @Ray7:

    Just like you said, Office, and we need a tablet that install Office. We don't want people move away from Office because they don't have it for tablet and go and start migrating to other format. It doesn't have to be a heavy duty as Desktop Office, but, people want to present PPT with it, people want to show Excel in a conference, and they are ok with less functionalities as long as the files can be used interchangbily on different OS.

     

    Like I said, start a new branch and merge it back. It is about choice. For the people who doesn't care about legacy apps, they will buy WinPhTablet. And they will find alternative apps that works well with fingers. And there is a gigantic market for those new apps that provides good solutions and experence without "virus, malware, spyware, evil unable to uninstall (Google Desktop and MSN), evil registery errors, decentralized update systems".

     

    When Windows is upgraded with WinPhTablet experience 6 years after WinPhTablet launched, people will gladly use their WinPhTablet apps on their Windows.

     

    Win95 drives the MS customer relations. That's how WinNT is relavent. That's how Office is relavent. Not WinNT and Office drives Win95. While the money is indeed from WinNT and Office, but, you cannot have those without proper advertisment and proper casual (non-business) customer perceptions.

     

    My point is simple, people want a thin protable device where they can use their fingers and they want to easily explore/install/uninstall/upgate an random app without fear to all the things that happened on non-managed space. I don't care how MS is going to address this, but, the demand has to be made or the people will just buy competitor's offering. Once they switch, you can kiss them goodbie. Once 50% of teens use it, you can also kiss your Windows Home edition goodbie.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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