Coffeehouse Thread

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Monday's big announcement.

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  • User profile image
    GoddersUK

    , Ray7 wrote

    Though if I were in charge of marketing, I would have kept the word 'vapor' out of the spec list until the device was closer to shipping.

    I thought the exact same thing when I saw that. It's just tempting fate.

    , ManipUni wrote

      - The pen is a useless gimmick (as it is on all mobile devices).

    I don't think that's true at all. In universities, for instance, tablet + stylus are widely used for delivering lectures and as a practical replacement for the somewhat impractical interactive whiteboards ("smartboards") that everyone was hyping a few years back. In fact I think in any situation where you want to do handwriting on your device a stylus is the best option (for instance someone above mentioned equation input).

     

  • User profile image
    GoddersUK

    , wastingtimewithforums wrote

     and then it went on and on about how light it is and the cool things they are doing with magnesium and their l33t metallurgy skillz.

    Don't dis metallurgy! Devil

     what another tablet with pluged-in keyboard and plastic holder couldn't do. I doubt the general public cares much about Dumbledore-approved magnesium-alchemy given how many cheap plastic crapdroids are selling.

    Err... how about running a full desktop OS, and all the associated feature (on the intel version of the Surface).

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    @wastingtimewithforums: The devil, as always, is in the details. Little things like the back camera being angled such that it's usable when on the stand make all the difference between a fully integrated system like this and one with afterthought attachments bundled in.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , GoddersUK wrote

    Err... how about running a full desktop OS

    You forgot the scientific consensus that the desktop is crippled on Win 8.

  • User profile image
    Richard.Hein

    @Charles I don't know about others, but I am a bit stunned and was trying to find more information - I have to watch that presentation Ian posted.  As soon as Balmer said something about having a great relationship with hardware vendors and how hardware and software push each other, I thought, "they are branding their own computer ... ", then they put Surface up in big letters and I thought, "oh it's Surface a consumer version!" - but it's a tablet, so I think, "tablet with Surface tech - Pixelsense!, yes!" - but it's not, which was confusing but I thought about how Balmer also made a point of saying v1 is usually not well received, which is almost an apology for the things it won't have on the first go.  

    Maybe I'm reading things into it, but perhaps that means things like Pixelsense may come.  Maybe it's not needed, if Kinect gets integrated in v2 instead.  And the thing is now I'm sure that the Kinect will eventually be integrated, because it is Microsoft's hardware.  That's the kicker ... and wow that's great, now they can really innovate in that space and we need someone other than Apple trying to do that.  So, MS is pulling an Apple, after seeing the business model works so well they can't ignore it.  So what happens to the relationship with the PC makers?  I don't know!  What should happen?  Did Microsoft say they are going to license it like Windows Phone 7, but have their own?  How does this work?

    I do think the manufacturing process of these kinds of devices is being commoditized so the way to distinguish yourself is to make a beautiful tablet and MS has the power behind this to drive a whole ecosystem, so I am excited about it, and as I said to my fiancĂ©e last night, "this means my investment in MS software development will likely pay off for another 10 years and isn't wasted; I don't have to become an Apple developer".  I have been wish MS would do this for years.   With the Zune it was a painful lesson.  I had one and it was great, but the store wasn't even available in Canada when I got it.  It's stuff like that I hope doesn't get in the way.

    Overall I'm excited about it, and have to read/see more to know for sure, but right now I feel like I'd buy one right away.

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    , wastingtimewithforums wrote

    *snip*

    You forgot the scientific consensus that the desktop is crippled on Win 8.

    Scientific consensus? *snort*

    , GoddersUK wrote

    I don't think that's true at all. In universities, for instance, tablet + stylus are widely used for delivering lectures and as a practical replacement for the somewhat impractical interactive whiteboards ("smartboards") that everyone was hyping a few years back. In fact I think in any situation where you want to do handwriting on your device a stylus is the best option (for instance someone above mentioned equation input).

    Reasons pen input is not a gimick:

    1. Truly mobile scenarios such as your doctor taking notes at your bedside require one handed, fast input, which you won't get from a keyboard, virtual or otherwise.

    2. True note taking requires the ability to jot notes anywhere, to be able to draw, etc. You can't beat pen input when brain storming.

    3. Drawing and CAD applications simply aren't going to work well with a fat finger.

    4. Accessibility concerns often means that pen input is preferred or even necessary. Ask someone with bad arthritis (a large segment of the consumer population) if they'd rather use a keyboard, touch screen or stylus.

    Jobs was simply wrong. If you require a pen, you're failing, but if you don't have good pen support your failing even worse. With the keyboard and pen these devices aren't just consumption devices, and as such they are far more appealing to me.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    , wkempf wrote

     

    Jobs was simply wrong. If you require a pen, you're failing, but if you don't have good pen support your failing even worse.

    Which does go some way to explain why Apple hasn't sold a single iPa... oh hang on.

    Jobs' mode of operation is pretty well known: you don't need it until we give it you.

     

     

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    @Ian2:Ballmer: "They [software+hardware] want to create, and they wand to consume, they want ... [etc. etc.]

    That was lame. The only thing that was lamer was 'the 4 facet of the cloud' marketing b/s

  • User profile image
    Ian2

    @fanbaby:  At present it is the PC (inc Macs) that in the main create the content for iPads (which largely just 'consume' data).  What Ballmer is saying is that the surface, as a PC, is up to the job of handling both creation and consumption of data/information.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    , fanbaby wrote

    *snip*

    A 3% share price drop right there Wink Never heard you pump up anything before.

    I wouln't mind getting one of these, depending on price and battery capacity. To hand it to apple, they do include these in their events, which make me think Microsoft is a little desperate Sad

    MSFT is up 3.5% this morning. Remind me to never take any finance tips from you.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    , fanbaby wrote

    @Ian2:Ballmer: "They [software+hardware] want to create, and they wand to consume, they want ... [etc. etc.]

    That was lame. The only thing that was lamer was 'the 4 facet of the cloud' marketing b/s

    Actually, your post is right up there. Smiley

  • User profile image
    cbae

    , Ray7 wrote

    *snip*

    Which does go some way to explain why Apple hasn't sold a single iPa... oh hang on.

    Jobs' mode of operation is pretty well known: you don't need it until we give it you.

    I think he means in the context of producing a product for his particular use cases. Clearly, for the use cases of finger painting and playing Angry Birds, nothing beats the iPad.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    , fanbaby wrote

    @Ian2:Ballmer: "They [software+hardware] want to create, and they wand to consume, they want ... [etc. etc.]

    That was lame. The only thing that was lamer was 'the 4 facet of the cloud' marketing b/s

    The what?? I think I missed that video.

     

    , cbae wrote

    *snip*

    I think he means in the context of producing a product for his particular use cases. Clearly, for the use cases of finger painting and playing Angry Birds, nothing beats the iPad.

    I see what you did there ...  Cool

    , Ian2 wrote

    @fanbaby:  At present it is the PC (inc Macs) that in the main create the content for iPads (which largely just 'consume' data).  What Ballmer is saying is that the surface, as a PC, is up to the job of handling both creation and consumption of data/information.

    Gotcha. I think I understand where he's going with this. Can't wait to see the marketing behind this. Should be an interesting bun fight.

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    @cbae: Yep. A whole lot of mopeds have been sold as well. That doesn't mean you're doing it wrong if you allow someone to drive on the freeway. Even as a consumption device, I believe Jobs was wrong. Read the questions asked in forums for the iPad or any other touch device and you'll hear plenty of people asking where they can find a stylus. Often it's for accessability reasons: there are plenty of people for whom touch input is uncomfortable, difficult and even impossible. That's also just within the narrow definition of use cases that Steve was targeting.

    "Jobs' mode of operation is (sic) pretty well known: you don't need it until we give it (sic) you." Pardon me if I was never one to fall under the influence of the RDF. Jobs did a great job of proving you could be wrong and still be successful.

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    , wkempf wrote

    Read the questions asked in forums for the iPad or any other touch device and you'll hear plenty of people asking where they can find a stylus.

    I had a friend who wanted to take notes in a lecture with his iPad. He bought a stylus and found a note taking app, and really struggled with the ordeal for a few days. Then, he gave up and decided that the iPad was purely a tool for consumption - you can't really create anything with it.

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    , wkempf wrote

    @cbae: Yep. A whole lot of mopeds have been sold as well. That doesn't mean you're doing it wrong if you allow someone to drive on the freeway. Even as a consumption device, I believe Jobs was wrong. Read the questions asked in forums for the iPad or any other touch device and you'll hear plenty of people asking where they can find a stylus. Often it's for accessability reasons: there are plenty of people for whom touch input is uncomfortable, difficult and even impossible. That's also just within the narrow definition of use cases that Steve was targeting.

    "Jobs' mode of operation is (sic) pretty well known: you don't need it until we give it (sic) you." Pardon me if I was never one to fall under the influence of the RDF. Jobs did a great job of proving you could be wrong and still be successful.

    consider yourself pardoned, but you missed the point. Jobs always knew that a stylus was needed, but part of the secret of their success is waiting for the competition to do it wrong before they attempt to do it right. There is a whole list of stuff that Apple said you didn't need then turned around and delivered it: windows that can be resized from any side; a mouse that at least pretended it had a second button; an API for their phone.

    Not saying they will ever do a stylus, but I am saying don't pay too much attention to what Apple says today; they are quite shameless when it comes to U-turns.

     

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    , Ian2 wrote

    @fanbaby:  At present it is the PC (inc Macs) that in the main create the content for iPads (which largely just 'consume' data).  What Ballmer is saying is that the surface, as a PC, is up to the job of handling both creation and consumption of data/information.

    Sure, I was just talking about the form, i.e. the marketing speak (who writes these things, i guess the boss himself).

    You should really look up the 4 facets of the cloud from about a year ago, which BTW has come and gone and left no impression, where he talks about the cloud (the cloud wants this and the could wants that).

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    , Ray7 wrote

    *snip*

    consider yourself pardoned, but you missed the point. Jobs always knew that a stylus was needed, but part of the secret of their success is waiting for the competition to do it wrong before they attempt to do it right. There is a whole list of stuff that Apple said you didn't need then turned around and delivered it: windows that can be resized from any side; a mouse that at least pretended it had a second button; an API for their phone.

    Not saying they will ever do a stylus, but I am saying don't pay too much attention to what Apple says today; they are quite shameless when it comes to U-turns.

     

    I didn't miss your point. You missed mine. "Don't pay too much attention to what Apple says today...", but I'm buying the device today. "You're doing it wrong" is an insult to me, because I need (or at least want) the stylus. His method of operation really only worked because of the RDF. People bought his BS, and therefore bought his products. I'm not buying a toy or an art piece, I'm buying a tool/productivity device. So I found most of what Jobs had to say to be insulting and pretentious, not insightful and intelligent. I'm not willing to wait for "the man" to make a U-turn and proclaim "but when we finally did it, we did it right!"

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