Coffeehouse Thread

31 posts

Negativity. For good reason

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  • wastingtime​withforums

    Looks like there will be no SP2 for Windows 7:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/24/no_windows_7_sp2/
    Despite W7 being in full support until 2015 and extended support until 2020. Oh boy, this will be fun to install W7 in two years and then installing the 300+ updates.. and what about the gazillions of post SP1 hotfixes? Are they seriously expecting everyone move to W8? EVEN BUSINESSES? Hey, boys and girls, if you expect businesses to move then you shouldn't optimize the GUI for social-crap primarily.

    So, the new product is just a worse deal for a lot of user cases and the reliable older product gets ditched at a phenomenal rate (even the badmouthed Vista got a lot more respect from MS when Windows 7 appeared - it got Service Pack 2 in the same year as W7 RTMed and has received the Plattform Update at the W7 release)

    So it's not only about the good old traditional desktop-Windows customer, it really looks like the want to annoy (and lose?) the business consumers as well.

    Apple envy too much? Fact is, especially for business Win8 is FUBAR. Just the training costs alone.. and for what? Apps like Win 8 mail? I thought Microsoft's strategy was going experimental with W8 on the consumer and tablet front but keeping serving and tending W7 for the enterprise and professionals. That dual strategy would make sense for now. But with moves like this they are annoying their biggest customers to no end for no good reason.

    Are they really this delusional that they think W8 is really this awesome that even business users will love it in its current form? Really?

  • vesuvius

    When have you ever shown any positivity in these forums?

  • wastingtime​withforums
  • ZippyV

    Why is it such a problem for Microsoft to at least provide a rollup of all current hotfixes?

  • kettch

    Has this been reported anywhere else besides The Register (and sites linking to them)?

    Let's all run around in a panic until some solid evidence either way is produced...standard Interwebs procedure.

    Just sayin'...

  • magicalclick

    @ZippyV:

    Reading the article, it claims to be very difficult with unknown fatal error. Probably they tried to combine the accumulative changes, but, it doesn't do well when some patches are dependent to another.

    But I think they should at least release new OS images with those patches pre-applied, if not offering it to existing OS.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
    Last modified
  • JoshRoss

    This sounds like something for the Defrag show. Can you create a slipstreamed install disk with the hundreds of patches needed to be up-to-date?

    -Josh

  • Craig_​Matthews

    , magicalclick wrote

    @ZippyV:

    Reading the article, it claims to be very difficult with unknown fatal error. Probably they tried to combine the accumulative changes, but, it doesn't do well when some patches are dependent to another.

    But I think they should at least release new OS images with those patches pre-applied, if not offering it to existing OS.

    Actually, the article stated the fatal errors were an issue with Service Pack 1 that Microsoft was never able to figure out. They don't state that as a reason for no SP2. 

    However, it wouldn't be a surprise. It wouldn't be the first time Microsoft failed to understand how their own software works and subsequently just gave up on it.

     

  • JoshRoss

    I've got your SP2 right here.

    -Josh

  • Ray7

    , Craig_​Matthews wrote

    *snip*

    However, it wouldn't be a surprise. It wouldn't be the first time Microsoft failed to understand how their own software works and subsequently just gave up on it.

    It's not a question of not understanding how their own software works; it's a question of not understanding how their own software works on a near infinite combination of hardware/driver/software configurations, 99% of which they haven't even seen. The fact that Windows boots up at all is a constant source of amazement to me.

    Bear in mind that Apple used to have similar problems caused by dodgy installations with hard-to-trace problems (and they make all the base hardware) until they stopped doing massive roll-up releases. 

    Would folk rather trace the problem in a small incremental change, or wade through a large service pack? 

    And since when have people started taking the Register's 'sources close to the team' stories as the universal truth?

  • vesuvius

    You mean you regurgitating the information that we all supplied to you in countless threads before. You said Windows 7 would fail so once you realise that we were right again about Windows 7, you will post with some contrition in it.

    Contrition is not being positive

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , vesuvius wrote

    *snip*

    You mean you regurgitating the information that we all supplied to you in countless threads before. You said Windows 7 would fail so once you realise that we were right again about Windows 7, you will post with some contrition in it.

    Contrition is not being positive

    I didn't say it would fail commercially (the pre-release buzz outside MS was far too positive for that) I said it had a stupid vulnerability in it. It didn't got exploited as much as I thought, I admit I was wrong regarding the UAC thing.

  • vesuvius

    @wastingtimewithforums: That completely changes my opinion about you

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , I wrote

    Fact is, especially for business Win8 is FUBAR.

    And here another example why (that one is a real stupid design decision):

    All programs got bonkered in W8. At first I couldn't believe it when I read this, but I just tried it out in a W8 RTM VM and it is true.

    If installers put links into the C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs folder, they ARE NOT GLOBAL. Not really that is. The link appears in the start screen for the user who installed the program, but all other users don't see it. It's only visible for them if they right-click and chose the "All Apps" screen.

    That's a nightmare scenario for multi-user enviroments and completey breaks expected behavior. What for? Ironically, C:\Users\Public\Desktop seems to work as expected. And I thought Microsoft wanted to push the start screen? Looks they strengthened the desktop with this (I doubt that was intended though). Looks like the "should I put a link on the desktop?"-question in installers got a lot more important indeed.

    Another nagger: I thought the tutorial only runs once after the installation. This would be ok. Wrong.. I just noticed that if a new user signs on for the first time, the tutorial plays again. For every new user, every time. WITH NO WAY TO SKIP IT. (OK, CTRL-ALT-DEL works....)

    Another easter egg added to W8. Especially developers and people who need to test software will just love this feature.

    And please don't compare it to the "welcome to Windows 95!" screen and the like. Those took a second to close, the W8 tutorial is annoying and long. I hope there is group policy setting for this.

    Oh, and let's also not forget that W8 apps need to be installed per user, undeleted per user and updated per user:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/hh464929.aspx

    Just try it out: Install the updates of all the default apps through the appstore, create another account on the computer and log-in to the app-store. What do you see? You need to install the updates for that user as well! Trying to manage this for multiple users is hell! At the moment, the only reasonable tactic if you have multiple users and you want to use them apps is to let them use ONE account only and lock that one down with scripts etc. BACK TO DOS, BABY

    Never ending fun for environments with more than one user per device. And that's without even touching the various issues the Metro/Win 8 Style/MS Style UI brings to the table for this user group that make the system feel truly like DOS - full screen apps only, crippled multitasking, unreliable background behavior of programs.. Wait, I am too hard on DOS. DOS has never automatically killed programs without any warning, just because they start too slow. Unlike Windows 8...

    And with such a product, Microsoft is on its way to sink Windows 7? God!

  • Sven Groot

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    If installers put links into the C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs folder, they ARE NOT GLOBAL. Not really that is. The link appears in the start screen for the user who installed the program, but all other users don't see it. It's only visible for them if they right-click and chose the "All Apps" screen.

    So what you're saying is that they are global, just not pinned to the start screen for all users automatically (which I would think is a good thing, actually). You should think about the start screen more like the old pinned area of the start menu (which wasn't shared between users either) rather than the all programs menu.

    And the tutorial plays during the time that Windows is creating the new accounts' files, so it's time you'd have to wait anyway, regardless of whether the video plays (in Windows 7 it says something like "preparing the desktop" during that time, which you also only see at first log-on and takes just as long).

  • Craig_​Matthews

    , Ray7 wrote

    *snip*

    It's not a question of not understanding how their own software works; it's a question of not understanding how their own software works on a near infinite combination of hardware/driver/software configurations, 99% of which they haven't even seen. The fact that Windows boots up at all is a constant source of amazement to me.

    Bear in mind that Apple used to have similar problems caused by dodgy installations with hard-to-trace problems (and they make all the base hardware) until they stopped doing massive roll-up releases. 

    Would folk rather trace the problem in a small incremental change, or wade through a large service pack? 

    And since when have people started taking the Register's 'sources close to the team' stories as the universal truth?

    I'm certain people would rather not deal with installing 300 separate updates by the next Presidential election. Microsoft seemed to not have much of a problem with service packs or roll-ups before. Also, the cross section of hardware variations is smaller this days. 

    And this is about Microsoft knowing how dependencies work between all of the individual updates, which all install separately without blue screening a computer. Hardware has nothing to do with it.

  • Sven Groot

    , Craig_​Matthews wrote

    And this is about Microsoft knowing how dependencies work between all of the individual updates, which all install separately without blue screening a computer. Hardware has nothing to do with it.

    Service Packs are not the same thing as an update roll-up. There is always more to a Service Pack, extra fixes, minor changes (very occasionally major like in XPSP2), etc. That's why they get their own testing cycles, and why they can sometimes cause problems that the individual updates don't.

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , Sven Groot wrote

    *snip*

    So what you're saying is that they are global, just not pinned to the start screen for all users automatically (which I would think is a good thing, actually). You should think about the start screen more like the old pinned area of the start menu (which wasn't shared between users either) rather than the all programs menu.

    Oh please. That's as global as the claim that Richard Stallman washes daily is truthful. The All Apps menu is confusing and hidden, no where it is said that you need to rightclick on a screen, with absolutely no hints, to bring up a lost looking button at the at the bottom which you need to click again and then start hunting, because newly installed programs aren't even highlighted. It's more confusing than the old start menu ever was!

    On Windows 7, the admin installs something and the newly installed programs are highlighted in the start menu the second the user touches the orb, waiting the lovely, tender click of the work drones! Thats how it should be.

    The hive queens give the orders to the admins, the admins install the programs, and once the worker drones log-in, they must see immediately all the lovely new bits in focus, with no hunting around. That's how the King of Corpland - in his divine wisdom - intended it. And it was good.

    , Sven Groot wrote

    *snip*

    And the tutorial plays during the time that Windows is creating the new accounts' files, so it's time you'd have to wait anyway, regardless of whether the video plays (in Windows 7 it says something like "preparing the desktop" during that time, which you also only see at first log-on and takes just as long).

    No, this is not true. The initial preparation is separate from the tutorial. The first time you log-in with a fresh account, you get greeted by a "Welcome" text and the typical Windows 8 spinning wheel. This takes even longer than on Win7 in my case (I guess it's because of the VM), ONLY THEN you get the non-skippable tutorial. The tutorial has nothing to do with the initialization because if you do the CTRL-ALT-DEL stunt (and chose task manager) the start screen appears (no tskmgr though) right away and everything works.

    Non-skippable on the very first boot would be ok, but this? Is the ESC key not hippster enough or something? Windows 8 - you need CTRL-ALT-DEL magic to skip a damn tutorial.

    But it's also the OS that by design crashes applications just because they don't start fast enough. Without even saying something to the user about this as the final insult. The first OS that kills complex applications by default! No wonder it ships with apps called "Mail" that can't even handle the most basic mail protocol. I am so tired to see people defend this OS.

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