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New anti-Win8 video is making rounds

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  • cbae

    @wastingtimewithforums:

    "My name is Brian Boyko

    In 2007, I wrote a couple of well-recieved articles..."

    LOL

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , Sven Groot wrote

    *snip*

    But that's not what your argument was. Your argument was that any change where the new version is not immediately intuitive to anyone who has used the old version is forbidden.

    Look, it's not even for the better. Even most Win8 fans don't exactly praise the interface, they just tell that they have managed to develop a workflow (lots of keyboard shortcuts, pinning etc.) that allows them to avoid Metro.

    , Sven Groot wrote

    Windows 95 was not intuitive to someone who used Windows 3.11 for a long time (I remember hating the taskbar initially). So according to you, they shouldn't have introduced it, fallback or not. And I challenge anyone who has never used Windows 95 before to figure out how to start the old-style Program Manager without looking it up (iirc, there was no shortcut for it. You have to do start, run, progman.exe or browse to the file using Explorer).

    OK, maybe it wasn't clear what I meant. I am for change, when the change is for the better. But even then, there should be a fallback.

    Win95 had an option for progman startup at setup if you installed it as an upgrade over Windows. It was also widely documented in the PC magazines of that time and most users were far more "power user" than today and read them.

  • brian.​shapiro

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    *snip*

    Look, it's not even for the better. Even most Win8 fans don't exactly praise the interface, they just tell that they have managed to develop a workflow (lots of keyboard shortcuts, pinning etc.) that allows them to avoid Metro.

    Let me make it clearer, then, I like the changes.

    I don't avoid Metro, although I don't go into full screen Metro apps very often. I like the Start Screen because it gives me better organization possibilities than the Start Menu, and I have all of my gadget-type information at a glance when I start my computer. I can see the weather, news, emails. I also like the notification system, so I use Metro apps like the eBay app to bring me notifications.

    As for my workflow, my workflow was not impacted at all by Metro. I learned to use pinning back in Windows 7.

  • Lizard​Rumsfeld

    Of course there's some hyberbole, but there's a lot of solid points in the video.  The complete lack of conveyance, consistency, context and lack of discoverability are explained with a good amount of reasoning and examples.

    Nothing entirely new from other detailed critiques, and should be expected when Windows8 is about MS trying to crack into the tablet market by grafting an interface suited for a completely different form factor onto traditional PC's.  It's trying to solve a Microsoft problem, not an end-user problem.

    But hey, just "get used to it".  Perplexed

    Windows "blue" is going to have to have significant UI changes before businesses remotely want to touch this turd.  I'm still in shock how little it changed from the developer preview UI wise, and how MS actually thought this was going to be get any traction in the market.

    Ballmer's "solution" to the Apple problem is to say "We're about design now!" - uh, you actually have to deliver and have the talent in-house before you an state your company actually has a toehold on the concept. Frankly it's exactly what I feared when I first saw Win8: Microsoft is going to take the dumb-* approach to UI clutter and completely screw up its interpretation of "minimalism" to mean "less stuff on screen".

  • ScottWelker

    @Dr Herbie: "I only bothered to watch the first two minutes..."

    Yep. ...about 2 min. in. Who has time for this? If there are valid points - and I'm not a Windows 8 adopter -, they are lost in the chaff.

    Anecdotally, my 19 y/o son picked up a new Windows 8 laptop and he loved it "it's just like the XBox Interface". No problem what so ever. I'll be watching to see whether he remains happy with it. However, it clearly is not "unusable".

  • Ray7

    Did anyone else think he sounded a lot like Rick Moranis?

  • BitFlipper

    While my dad is technical, he isn't necessarily a computer expert. He lives in another state where I live and I had no input over his OS choice at all, so I see his experience as typical of the masses with some computer knowledge. He went ahead and upgraded to Windows 8 and basically all went well.

    The first thing he did after installing Windows 8 was complain that it took him a long time to figure out how to power the computer off. The next thing was to install that utility that gives you back the start button and also boot into the desktop. I didn't tell him about it - he just searched around and installed it himself. He is very proud that his computer now looks and acts "just like" Windows 7 (although I have to disagree in that the Windows 8 desktop looks fugly compared to Windows 7).

    Personally I have Windows 8 installed on my desktop and hate the tile UI. I find it annoying since it tries to force me into this one-app-at-a-time mindset that I just don't like. I gave it a long time now but it's not growing on me. It doesn't belong on the desktop with multiple monitors, so please keep it on the tablets thanks a lot.

  • elmer

    , BitFlipper wrote

    I gave it a long time now but it's not growing on me.

    I also hate the 'metro' UI for the desktop - what the hell were they thinking? I feel like I need to wear sunglasses every time I approach a Win8 desktop.

  • Heywood_J

    , Sven Groot wrote

    And I challenge anyone who has never used Windows 95 before to figure out how to start the old-style Program Manager without looking it up (iirc, there was no shortcut for it. You have to do start, run, progman.exe or browse to the file using Explorer).

    That's a very poor example.  Program Manager came from Windows 3.x and in Windows 95 it was replaced by Windows Explorer.  Program Manager still existed but served no real purpose other than compatibility with Windows 3.x programs. That's why it was hard to find and why most people running Windows 95 probably never had any need to ever use it.

    And that's an important point that need to be made.   It's perfectly OK for some obscure or less frequently used features to not be immediately obvious.  But having no obvious way to do something as simple as turn off the computer or exit a program is a much bigger problem.

    Sure the guy's video is too overly dramatic.  Unfortunately he made the video for the wrong reason -- he's a freelance writer trying to generate some buzz about himself.  However, other than the overly dramatic dramatization, he does make some very valid points.

    I really wanted to like Windows 8, just as I've liked every other version of Windows   But I find Windows 8 to be a big disappointment.  The issue is not change.  No reasonable person is against change.  But not all changes are good.  And that's one of the big problems -- nobody seems to be willing to admit that it's possible to make changes that are bad.

    Oh well, the good news is that my copies of Windows 7 aren't going to evaporate off my computers.

  • BitFlipper

    , Heywood_J wrote

    *snip*

    Oh well, the good news is that my copies of Windows 7 aren't going to evaporate off my computers.

    Yea that was my feeling as well until I realized I had to go to Windows 8 if I wanted to do any Windows Phone 8 development. If it wasn't for that I would not have upgraded either. And this from someone that installed every previous beta Windows release as soon as it was viable.

    One good thing is that it does seem faster than Windows 7 when using audio applications. Latency settings can be set lower. This points to some really nice improvements under the hood. If only they didn't...

    There's still hope though... Once it becomes clear that very few people really want or care for the Metro UI on a desktop computer, MS can release a patch that restores previous desktop functionality. That includes restoring the Start menu as well as unfuglyfying the desktop UI again. Technically this shouldn't be too difficult and should not break any compatibility. The Metro UI can still be an option, just not shoved down our throats.

  • JoshRoss

    , BitFlipper wrote

    *snip*

    There's still hope though... Once it becomes clear that very few people really want or care for the Metro UI on a desktop computer, MS can release a patch that restores previous desktop functionality. That includes restoring the Start menu as well as unfuglyfying the desktop UI again. Technically this shouldn't be too difficult and should not break any compatibility. The Metro UI can still be an option, just not shoved down our throats.

    I think you're completely correct about the necessity of restoring previous desktop functionality, in a short term patch. Ten years down the line, who knows if content creation-- other than photography-- will take off on touch. But, in the mean time, content creators need a professional environment running on professional devices.

    How do you monetize that trend? I have no idea. There will be fewer desktops in the future, more mobile devices, and perhaps less money. Right now there are probably a lot of people that have purchased Windows and Office who will only utilize a tiny fraction of the utility. As Office gets more expansive, the install base will use even less of it. How long will the majority of casual users keep doling out hundreds of dollars, this? Conversely, how much can you possibly charge the power-users who need it all?

    Look what happened to Apple's Pro line-up of software. Do you think they lowered the price and dummied down the interfaces for the benefit of the professional users? I would think it would be difficult to maintain-- or god forbid grow-- a huge software empire with niche products.

    -Josh

  • Blue Ink

    I forced myself to watch the entire video and those were minutes I'll sorely regret wasting.

    A couple of egregious points: Windows 8 tells you about the corners the first time you run it. Actually, it doesn't just tell you, it shows you. The concept that "placing the mouse in a corner does stuff" is so basic that claiming it's hard to discover is just disingenuous.

    The second point is about touch gestures on the touch pad. Actually he has a point, it's a bad, bad experience, bad design, bad implementation. But that's not a problem with Windows, it's the silly touch pad driver that's doing that. Déjà vu, anyone?

    My anecdotical experience: I have a laptop with an OEM Synaptics touchpad. When I upgraded it to Windows 8, it kept working exactly like it did before.

    It wasn't perfect though, as scrolling didn't seem to work in Reader, so I went and tried downloading the newest driver from Synaptics. Windows 8 wasn't happy (it immediately listed the old driver as an important update) and neither was I as the charms bar kept appearing. Not nearly as disruptive as the task switching, but still quite annoying.

    Fixing it boiled down to disabling "Edge swipes" in the control panel; to Synaptics' credit, very little guesswork was required as their control panel, while horrible to look at, comes with short videos showing what each option does. All in all it must have taken me a couple of minutes, tops.

    Ok, my mother probably couldn't have figured it out by herself, but again, it's a problem with the laptop manufacturer. If anything, it highlights why it was a good idea for Microsoft to start designing reference hardware or, at least, raise the bar for certification.

  • Lizard​Rumsfeld

    There's still hope though... Once it becomes clear that very few people really want or care for the Metro UI on a desktop computer, MS can release a patch that restores previous desktop functionality. That includes restoring the Start menu as well as unfuglyfying the desktop UI again. Technically this shouldn't be too difficult and should not break any compatibility. The Metro UI can still be an option, just not shoved down our throats.

    I'd be very surprised if they did this.  It would be basically admitting the entire design ethos of Win8 was a failure; which while I think is true to some extent, I don't think MS is ready to admit that unless the numbers coming out into late '13 are a disaster.  Maybe the desktop will get some tweaking, sure - but I think the majority of work, at least in "blue", will be about unifying Metro and the Desktop environments to some extent.  They'll still want you to use Metro as much as possible.

    Agreed on the desktop.  Damn this is the ugliest desktop MS has put out in some time, relative to modern design I think it's worse than the garish Luna (but that could at least be easily mitigated with a new Style XP skin or when Royale came out).  It's just so...lazy.  Just flattening some elements while leaving Win7's faux-3d icons everywhere, getting rid of the transparency (which really hurts when you have rotating wallpapers and your border colours to match - hope you like your windows suddenly become brown and hot pink when a new pic appears!), and that's about it.  So much more they could have done to make it look professional if they were so dead-set on Aero suddenly being considered passe'.

    The desktop can't be retired, but it does need to be updated.  I don't want Win9 (won't expect this for Blue) to just return the Win7 desktop, there are a host of improvements that can be made.  I'm not dead-set against the Metro aesthetic, I think the Zune software is wonderful (speaking of more idiotic decisions - now it's dead with Win8 phones and the replacement sync tool has 10% of the functionality, why, why MS?!), and I can see how that design could translate to the desktop quite well.  Office 2013 is a decent start (albeit too monochrome), the engine powering it is great - smooth and fast with excellent use of the GPU.  That's actually what I expected for the Win8 desktop.

  • elmer

    @NitzWalsh: I suspect that the figures for business sales will be reminiscent of Vista. With no pull-through from the O/S itself, I see SMB implementing another replace/upgrade policy based on the hardware. Having been through a buying cycle with Win7, many businesses will extend the life of those purchases until the hardware becomes an issue, and downgrade any Win8 they are forced to buy to maintain their Win7 platform.

  • JoshRoss

    , NitzWalsh wrote

    *snip*

    Office 2013 is a decent start (albeit too monochrome), the engine powering it is great - smooth and fast with excellent use of the GPU.  That's actually what I expected for the Win8 desktop.

    OMG, barf. Win+U, disable unnecessary animations.

  • warren

    Agreed on the desktop.  Damn this is the ugliest desktop MS has put out in some time, relative to modern design I think it's worse than the garish Luna (but that could at least be easily mitigated with a new Style XP skin or when Royale came out).  It's just so...lazy.  Just flattening some elements while leaving Win7's faux-3d icons everywhere, getting rid of the transparency (which really hurts when you have rotating wallpapers and your border colours to match - hope you like your windows suddenly become brown and hot pink when a new pic appears!), and that's about it.  So much more they could have done to make it look professional if they were so dead-set on Aero suddenly being considered passe'.

    A lot of people... I mean, a lot of people hated Aero.  Flip back through the Coffeehouse to 2006 or so, you'll see what I mean.  People thought the transparent borders were extremely distracting and made it harder to read what was on the title bar.  And in general, people thought it was "too colourful" and drew too much attention to itself instead of keeping your attention on the apps.  We can agree with that or not, but it's not like Aero was ever really thought of as the gold standard of user interfaces.

    Windows 8 definitely feels "unfinished" though.... like they just didn't have time to settle on a new coherent design for the desktop.  For example, you can still find the Vista-era animations in the change permissions progress dialog.  The Speech Tutorial still has a Vista-era close button as well.

    BTW, If you don't like the automatic colour changes in the UI chrome when your desktop background changes, turn it off by setting a specific colour.  You have all the same flexibility as Windows 7 here, with the exception of the translucent glass effect of Vista and 7.  You didn't have that effect in Windows XP so you should be able to live without it in Windows 8. Wink

  • JoshRoss

    @warren: I think the most valid gripe concerning aero was the speed degradation of the UI, compared to XP. Vista was just a dog, and memory footprint was horrendous. It really took WDDM 1.1, before there was significant improvements in this area.

    I don't wax nostalgic for the stacking window manger. But, if you don't like the DWM, you're not going to like Windows 8. New features / bugs aside, the best thing Windows has going for it is backwards compatibility-- with the notable exception of Windows RT... Now that's a cluster F.

    -Josh

     

  • Mr Crash

    BitFlipper wrote

    *snip*

    There's still hope though... Once it becomes clear that very few people really want or care for the Metro UI on a desktop computer, MS can release a patch that restores previous desktop functionality. That includes restoring the Start menu as well as unfuglyfying the desktop UI again. Technically this shouldn't be too difficult and should not break any compatibility. The Metro UI can still be an option, just not shoved down our throats.

    Microsoft admitting they were wrong and lied when they said the ui had been tested by real Neutral testers.

    Never going to happen. Would be like christians admitting their religion is wrong and based on a sci-fi book.

    Microsoft will most likely lock in the users even more and try to be more controlling like apple in windows 9.

    Wouldn't surprise me if open source and hobby development were completely forbidden in w9.
    They have already made it difficult and slowed down boot up of all open source OS:s with the "secure boot" bullshit. Of course we know secure boot was only a anti-piracy measure but come on. Where was the common sense when hardware vendors were forced into this ?

    Where is the common sense in the industry at all really these days ?

    When will they realize that people that pirated windows will just move to linux ?

    This whole thing pisses me off immensely.

    I miss the good old days when tech companies were smart and used common sense.

    Who is to blame for this stupification ?

    Bosses do not listen to their employees and the company do not listen to its income source (consumers).

    How come morons are able to get into a position that can damage a company so ?

    This is the political scene all over again.

     

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