Coffeehouse Thread

140 posts

Forum Read Only

This forum has been made read only by the site admins. No new threads or comments can be added.

Conversation Locked

This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.

New anti-Win8 video is making rounds

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    It is not a more illogical place than the start menu to be sure. The only problem with it is that it's hard to find, because unlike its previous spot it's not in your face the whole time.

    One thing I don't know is why there's no shut down option under your username on the start screen. I mean, there's lock and sign out there, having shut down there would both make sense and be easier to find.

    But, once you know where to find it, it's not that hard.

    And as Jim Young pointed out, you can just push the power button. It is by default set to shut down on desktop PCs (at least it is on mine).

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    Hey, is Paul Thurrot reading this forum?

    Windows 8: A thousand little cuts.. eh, Death by a Thousand Cuts:

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/windows8/microsoft-windows-8-death-thousand-cuts-144989

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , Sven Groot wrote

    It is not a more illogical place than the start menu to be sure. 

    Some historical perspective: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/07/22/54559.aspx

     

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , Sven Groot wrote

    It is not a more illogical place than the start menu to be sure.

    It is. The start menu was the central hub. Its name wasn't exactly great, but it was sort of logical that the central hub would have the option to shutdown.

    But.. settings?! Don't fool yourself, it's stoopid. The "Start" issue got fixed by Vista anyway.

    , Sven Groot wrote

    One thing I don't know is why there's no shut down option under your username on the start screen. I mean, there's lock and sign out there, having shut down there would both make sense and be easier to find.

    Because no one bothered to test that stuff with real users?

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/windows8/microsoft-windows-8-death-thousand-cuts-144989

    Quote: Windows 7 and Windows 8 were developed in abject isolation from the outside world, because Microsoft disbanded the beta testing teams that had previously offered feedback at a very early point in development.

    Wow, that explains quite a bit! It worked with Windows 7 because W7 is basically just a bugfixed Vista. And the UI of Vista in turn was mostly that of XP. But once they had to design a new UI, the disbanding of the testing groups misfired badly on them with Windows 8.

    Read it aloud: Windows 8's UI had no testing! Dang, it shows.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    Quote: Windows 7 and Windows 8 were developed in abject isolation from the outside world, because Microsoft disbanded the beta testing teams that had previously offered feedback at a very early point in development.

    Look, I know that you agree with Paul's main point, and therefore want to agree with him wholeheartedly as a beacon of good Internet journalism, but some of the stuff he's said is just made up.

    For example, suggesting that Microsoft disbanded beta testing after they not only patently did lots of usability testing with real users, but in fact, Developer Preview and Consumer Preview had the biggest userbase of any beta ever before in history for any technology product ever.

    Now there's an argument about whether they did anything with the feedback, but claiming that they didn't collect it is just utter, fact-ignoring bokum.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    Developer Preview and Consumer Preview had the biggest userbase of any beta ever before in history for any technology product ever.

    Now there's an argument about whether they did anything with the feedback, but claiming that they didn't collect it is just utter, fact-ignoring bokum.

    The didn't listen about any of the UI issues and design decisions. It was just there to iron out the bugs, but the GUI (the main "bug" of W8) was never up for a honest test with the preview versions.

    It went like this:

    Sinofsky's Blog
    user 1: Hi there! I like Windows 8.
    user 2: You said Aero shouldn't be in Windows 8 because it harms battery life, but that doesn't make sense because Aero can be turned off when the computer is on battery. It actually wasn't long ago that Microsoft was defending Aero as having minimal impact on battery life. Are you now going to claim that Microsoft was wrong? In fact I have multiple links showing specific benchmarks that Aero only uses 1-4% when on and.....
    user 3: Will Windows 8 have a Twitter app?
    Sinofsky: That's a great question that I'd be happy to answer. Yes Windows 8 will have a Twitter pp.
    (week later user 2 comment is gone)

    I was there on the W8 blog, it was exactly like that.

  • User profile image
    SteveRichter

    Has Julie Green made any public statements about Windows 8 since she was put in charge?

    Despite all of the content channel 9 is putting out about Win8 I still know nothing about what it can do for me when programming a desktop app.

     

  • User profile image
    Sven Groot

    , evildictait​or wrote

    For example, suggesting that Microsoft disbanded beta testing after they not only patently did lots of usability testing with real users, but in fact, Developer Preview and Consumer Preview had the biggest userbase of any beta ever before in history for any technology product ever.

    They disbanded the technical beta program, something which I've been a member of since Windows 2000 beta 3.

    The Windows beta program used to be awesome. You got very frequent builds, there was an open an frank dialogue with the developers on the newsgroups, you got real responses to your bug reports, and you ended up with the feeling that not only did you find some bugs, you helped shape the final product. Some tiny insignificant part of XP and Vista is because of my contribution during those beta programs.

    Then there was the Windows 7 beta program. We only got the public builds, no additional ones. The first build we got was already at a more advanced stage of development than the first RC was for XP or Vista. And you got the feeling your input wasn't wanted anymore. They wanted bug reports, not suggestions. I remember many people on the beta newsgroups for Windows 7 complaining about how there was no two-way conversation anymore, we were just bug finders.

    The Windows 7 SP1 beta, there was no involvement from MS on the newsgroups beyond the original announcement that the first build was available. Nothing. The newsgroups were closed entirely halfway through the beta.

    Windows 8 had no beta program. There were public previews, sure, but do you really have the impression they listened to any of the feedback? I'm sure they took real bug reports to heart, but as far as the usability feedback was concerned they just sailed their own pre-planned course regardless as far as I could tell.

    I like Windows 8. It has some bad points, but overall it's a very nice OS to use on a daily basis once you get used to it. But I have absolutely no illusions about how much they responded to user feedback other than their own internal testing.

    This more closed nature was a direct result of Sinofsky's influence, who used to run Office that way as well. Hopefully with him out of the picture they'll be more open again in the future.

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    MS is seriously burning through their marketshare capital. They think they are untouchable and can pull this crap. They were able to recover from Vista with an excellent Windows 7 release but Windows 8 is an order of magnitude more off-putting that UAC in Vista ever was.

    Many companies reversed bad decisions by starting with "Due to popular demand, we decided to bring back...", and then MS should release a patch that reverses the castration they did to the desktop. They will have some egg on their face for being "wrong" for a short while until people forget about it, and we will all go back to being happy again. Failure to do so will just result in more and more people looking for alternatives. As far as I can tell, there is absolutely zero advantage whatsoever in destroying 20+ years of desktop evolution for the sake of forcing Metro down our throats. None.

    Metro on tablets is another thing, but we are not talking about tablets here.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , BitFlipper wrote

    Many companies reversed bad decisions by starting with "Due to popular demand, we decided to bring back..."

    http://www.windowsitpro.com/article/windows8/microsoft-windows-8-death-thousand-cuts-144989
    (comment from Dec 19, 2012)

    Paul, I worked at MS between 2009-2011 and witnessed some of the most horiffic arrogance I've ever seen. I used to be a huge MS fan--until I started getting burned by their products (all but abandoned Media Center Extenders, abandoned all support for MS Networking products--causing me to spend a good amount of money to replace them since they didn't work in Windows 7, the mess that was Windows Mobile 5 and its (lack of) stability, and FIVE fried Xbox 360's).

    Up to, and shortly after the Windows Phone 7 roll-out, I got harrassed, ridiculed, and threatened for owning an iPhone. But NO ONE would ask me why I owned one. Passionate employees, and a (former) friend who's currently a Senior Dev in WinPhone, berated me publicly (on the internal "Officetalk" site)--for not supporting the company. When Win7SP1 hit RTM--it broke iTunes in certain configs. I brought it up, and wrote a bug--and was told to "Shut up--it's not our problem. Close your bug, at once" (literally).

    It was at that point I decided that MS was not the place for me. I've since left the high tech field and now work in IT for the government--and I love every minute of it.

    BTW...that former friend in WinPhone--he has a PC and a Windows Phone. His wife has a Mac and iPhone. They *almost* got a divorce when he thought he'd be cool and install Windows 7 via Boot Camp on her Mac. That's how sour the "Kool Aid" is in Redmond...


    -----

    I don't know if it's legit (it's just a comment aftert all), but if this the truth.. man, that explains Windows 8 and their ego-mania on not fixing its issues! I think it's literally just about EGO
    first and foremost here. Once Metro was decided, they want to brute force it
    down no matter the cost, because admitting a failure will break their pride.

    After seeing Sinofsky in action on his W8 blog, - and how arrogant MS is still about W8, despite it's doing apparently even worse than Vista, I can easily believe this comment. Something is seriously wrong at Redmond since a few years. I think it's the craze-inducing Apple envy. Here's a great post on another forum about that:

    http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/155290-windows-8-deeper-impressions/page__st__1400__p__1023661#entry1023661

  • User profile image
    wsdotnet

    @BitFlipper: 110% Agree!! 

    A little off point but, years a ago there was a saying "No one ever got fired for buying IBM/Microsoft/gold". Now a days you have to some how look at your "magic 8 ball" to before using any new Microsoft technology because you never know if/when Microsoft will discontinue and leave you up the creek (silverlight, expressions, just to beat a dead horse Wink ). Its getting to the point where you just can't trust Microsoft any more.

  • User profile image
    elmer

    , BitFlipper wrote

    Many companies reversed bad decisions by starting with "Due to popular demand, we decided to bring back...", and then MS should release a patch that reverses the castration they did to the desktop. They will have some egg on their face for being "wrong" for a short while until people forget about it, and we will all go back to being happy again. Failure to do so will just result in more and more people looking for alternatives.

    Start looking for alternatives...

    http://www.neowin.net/news/sorry-windows-blue-wont-bring-back-the-start-button

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    Smart move.. not.

    Remember what Ballmer almost did when he had Google-envy? He was willing to buy Yahoo for.. what was it? Almost 44 billion?! As far as I can remember, he was even willing to stock it up to 50bn. The MS employees should be praying to this day that Yahoo denied the first bid, otherwise the company (MS) would have had a record loss. No way that Yahoo (a web-corpse even back then) would in any way recoup such investment. That madness came from Ballmer's mad envy at Google. Now he has replaced it with Apple-envy. The resulting move to shove metro down the throats of everyone is equally foolish. Maybe more so, since this time the madness wasn't stopped. One could say this time Ballmer bought Yahoo for 44 billion indeed.

    Envy is a frigging dangerous thing at MS!

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    Well when it turns out that Window 8 is a failure and when MS pulls their head out of the sand and realize it is because of the drastic and unwanted changes to the desktop, they might be forced to change course.

    At this point however they are still in denial so of course the current plans for the next version of Windows is going to follow down that same flawed path. It doesn't mean someone smart inside MS with influence can't wake up at some point and help to put Windows back on course. As I said, it's just a service pack and some egg on their face away from being fixed.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    I still don't get the focus on the start button.

    If you're going to object to Windows8, object to Metro don't object to the demise of the start menu that nobody used and which had long since outlived its utility. The start menu was crap and good riddance.

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    , evildictait​or wrote

    I still don't get the focus on the start button.

    If you're going to object to Windows8, object to Metro don't object to the demise of the start menu that nobody used and which had long since outlived its utility. The start menu was crap and good riddance.

    LOL, nobody used? With all due respect I think you need to speak for yourself on this one.

    I have no problem with Metro. In fact I was a big proponent for exactly that before MS even hinted they were going to do something like that. I think it is great for tablets. However I was never for wreaking the desktop in the process.

    And I'm not saying they should remove Metro from Windows 8. It should however be an option and if it takes off, then great, we can move in that direction. However if it doesn't take off, MS has also destroyed the tried-and-proven desktop that they have been refining over the last 20 years. For what exactly?

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , evildictait​or wrote

    I still don't get the focus on the start button.

    If you're going to object to Windows8, object to Metro don't object to the demise of the start menu that nobody used

    That's why there are so many Start Menu replacements for W8. The  "nobody" bit is just false. Sinofky's stats were highly manipulating and self-serving.

    , evildictait​or wrote

    The start menu was crap and good riddance.

    Maybe it was, problem is, the replacement is worse! Short exercise: Search for a file in "start" and drag it into Word. "Press winkey and start typing!" as they say.. This easy task in W7 and Vista becomes quite a rocker in Win8 because the search results are in a entirely different plane now. If you say there is some obscure keyboard shortcut for that, you lose.

    An application launcher that occupies the whole darn screen on a 27 incher is inferior to the start menu. End. The approach is just WRONG. You know who pioneered that design on the desktop? An NES EMULATOR!

    Look at Nemulator 2.0 from 2009 (that's before Windows Phone 7). It has live tiles! You click on them them and they expand to full screen. All the other "applications" apparently still run when that happens. The design, look and feel of the UI is very metrofy, too. For example: There is no search box or any indication that the GUI is searchable, yet it is! (notice the popping letters in the video) I wonder whether the designer filed patents?

    Screenshot: (you should see the video though to see the live-tile aspect)

    Generic Forum Image

    Well, at least the Metro "apps" aren't too far away from their spiritual forefathers. Who would have thought they would add this GUI into Windows "Pro" and make it mandatory?

  • User profile image
    Retro​Recursion

    I agree that the customer preview could not be considered a beta test... not like they were in the past. We used to be able to offer feedback and you could always work with someone at MS one-on-one to offer your contribution. Remember getting free copies of the software as a "thank you" for your contribution in the beta program? What happened to those days? Gone!

    Even if MS is taking the Apple approach (which involves them deciding what's best for everyone), there's one thing I can't quite wrap my head around: Why did Microsoft think that Metro would be successful on the desktop??

    Metro has been a design they've pushed in the market since 2007 with the Zune. Here we are 5 years later. How has Metro done at selling itself? Zune is dead. Windows Phone has been out for years and it's not catching on. If Metro is so good, why have so many of its products failed for five years? To make matters worse, Metro was designed for the mobile space and was a stretch for the tablet form factor. So, who in the world thought that such an interface would magically start to "work" when on full size PCs? (Not to mention servers! Why is Metro necessary on a server operating system?)

Conversation locked

This conversation has been locked by the site admins. No new comments can be made.