Coffeehouse Thread

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New anti-Win8 video is making rounds

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  • cbae

    @NitzWalsh: Your post is more of the same:

    • "I'm not ranting."
    • "These are legitimate complaints."
    • "It's different this time."
    • "You're just sticking your head in the sand."

    Same *, different OS version.

  • evildictait​or

    , NitzWalsh wrote

    Yeah, screw discussion about a product in discussion forums.  Cheerleading only please!

    I think you have misunderstood what C9 is for.

    C9 is not about "cheerleading" or "denigrating" Microsoft products. Hell, it's barely about products full stop. It's about technology.

    To me, C9 is at its best when the discussions are about kernel changes (like Singuarity), language features like async, how stuff works (like Landy Wang's memory manager, C++ of N, etc).

    C9 is best when it's populated by techies from MS at ground level. Complaining about top-level Microsoft decisions (like Metro/start menu etc) or aggressively being negative about Microsoft pushes those interesting people away.

    Nobody senior from Microsoft frequents these forums. Complaining about the start menu yet-a-freaking-gain makes those ground-roots awesome technies feel alienated and unwanted at C9 (so they go to Microsoft's intranet or other places instead) and the people who you are in a position to change the things you are complaining about don't visit C9.

    That's why I say I'm bored of anti-Win8 threads. It's because they're boring, not going to be resolved here and damage C9's community.

  • Lizard​Rumsfeld

    That's an understandable concern to have, but in my years here I really don't see a large MS community from MS to push away.  And if there was, they likely stopped participating long ago when the CoffeHouse had a lot more legitimate trolls rather than Windows OS fans (like myself) who just seem exasperated by the direction the company has taken lately, or rather the seemingly lack of direction.  The clampdown on them has improved things.

    I don't expect that senior MS officials are looking at these forums (not that it would do much good - lord knows the feedback from the Building Windows 8 blogs was fierce - albeit with lots of spittle - but largely ignored), but I do expect that the people who take the time to sign up are those that at least have more than a passing interest in seeing MS succeed.  I expect a little rah-rahing here as compared to other forums and that's fine, but your past message seemed to indicate that any critique of Win8 was out of bounds which seemed more than a bit much.

    So I agree at least, general "Win8 sucks and everyone hates it!" posts probably aren't worthwhile and I'll try to cap them from the start.  Conversely though, any critique responded with "You just don't like change!" is equally vacuous and doesn't foster decent discussion either, and emotions spiral.

    Bear in mind this is the CoffeHouse, I wouldn't expect these types of discussions to be in Tech Off.   I think a little back and forth on MS as an organization overall and how their products are emerging should be acceptable as long as there is some well thought out perspective and actual content to debate.

     

  • Sven Groot

    I have no problem with people voicing their complaints about Windows 8. Heck, if you check my posting history I was very vocal about not liking the changes back at the DP and CP. But then I actually gave the final version a real chance, and found that after a few weeks, it really doesn't matter.

    Yeah, I would rather not have a full screen start menu replacement, but in the end, the fact that it's full screen doesn't actually hinder me like I thought it would. Yeah, I'd rather have better windowed and multi-monitor support for metro apps, but for the literally two metro apps that I routinely use (MetroTwit and Rain Alert) it doesn't actually bother me like I thought it would. Yeah, I would rather have the start menu MRU list compared to the "let's dump everything here and let the user sort it out" method the start screen uses when you install something new, but in the end that was only an issue during the first day when I actually installed a lot of stuff. Yeah, shutdown is hard to find but once you know where it is, you're fine.

    And there are things I legitimately do like in Windows 8. I like the live tiles and the overall look of the start screen. I like how fast and fluid it feels. I really like the improvements to the desktop experience (primarily the new task manager and the improvements to explorer). I like the pervasive spell check. And on a smaller screen (even my non-touch capable 13" laptop), the full screen metro experience is actually quite nice (I found myself using metro apps a lot more when on the road with only the laptop).

    My only real complaint, the thing that actually does bother me as much as I was expecting it to, is that the start screen's search can't search all categories at once like the start menu did. It's annoying when I want to search for a file or control panel item because it takes an additional click.

    What Windows 9 needs is more consistency, and more thought into how to integrate the metro and desktop worlds. They're too much two separate layers at the moment. People with big screens or multiple screens need to be able to run multiple metro apps side-by-side (like a 50/50 split, not just docked at the side of the screen) even if windowed metro apps aren't allowed (which I would like but do find unlikely to happen). And they need to give real thought about what belongs in the metro settings app and what belongs in the desktop control panel, because right now that appears to have been determined by flipping a coin.

    Other than that, none of the things I "hated" about Windows 8 back during the DP and CP actually hinder me. Windows 8 is not harder to use nor is it less productive. It's just different. Better in some aspects and worse in others. Whether the negatives outweigh the positives is a matter of personal preference, and how long you're willing to spend getting used to it.

    So I don't mind it if people don't like Windows 8. I can see their concerns, I used to share them, but it turns out that in the end, for me, most of them aren't a problem after using it for an extended period of time. But I'm not you, so it could be that you have genuine problems with it, and that's fine.

    What I do mind is people saying the same thing over and over and over. I know exactly who likes and does not like Windows 8 on this forum by now, and for what reasons. Repeating the same things over and over again does not change anything. It doesn't make MS more likely to notice or make it more likely for those of us who do like it to change our mind. All it achieves is suppressing more constructive discourse on this fourm.

    So to Wastingtimewithforums and the others I say this: we get it. You don't like it, and we understand why you don't like it. You don't need to repeat that again and again, because you're not going to change our minds any more than we are going to change yours.

  • JoshRoss

    @Sven Groot: Why do you suppose the start screen content is siloed into rigid categories? Bing has one search box. Sometimes less is more. And why in the world do I have to spell everything correctly?

  • exoteric

    , evildictait​or wrote

    [...]

    To me, C9 is at its best when the discussions are about kernel changes (like Singuarity), language features like async, how stuff works (like Landy Wang's memory manager, C++ of N, etc).

    [...]

    That's why I say I'm bored of anti-Win8 threads. It's because they're boring, not going to be resolved here and damage C9's community.

    I think most people who frequent these forums are technology enthusiasts not representative of the general public but to some extent of programmers and power users. The content of Channel 9 is not narrowly defined to be about kernel videos and so neither should the forum discourse be. Debate should just be in a sober tone but not everybody master that discipline. That said, when you make products that are used by a large part of the world populus, you have to be prepared for feedback, even crazy feedback - but of course moderation helps.

    I hope to see much research and development in the UI and UX space. I find this kind of technology just as interesting as deep kernel improvements and one of the places where I expect (hope) many changes in the coming years. Wasn't it something like 400+ developers working on "Avalon" for 5+ years? So we are talking about thousands of man-years poured into a GUI framework. It has interesting interactions with programming language development, etc. So it's not  a trivial area.

    Embrace and extend. Smiley

  • BitFlipper

    , Sven Groot wrote

    So to Wastingtimewithforums and the others I say this: we get it. You don't like it, and we understand why you don't like it. You don't need to repeat that again and again, because you're not going to change our minds any more than we are going to change yours.

    The problem is that if we stop complaining about the horrible direction Windows is taking, MS might think we started liking it.

    Unfortunately it seems the only way this will be resolved is to let Windows 8 fail in the marketplace (and by the looks of it, it is well on its path to failure). MS and some of their supporters are so hard headed or simply in denial that this is the only way. Unfortunately for MS, the alternatives to Windows are much more viable this time around compared to the Vista timeframe. A Windows 7-like recovery from a bad release this time will be much harder to pull off.

    Oh well, I hope they make it because I don't like the alternatives at all. While I'm far from switching, I'm much closer to considering alternatives than I've ever was. I can imagine previous fence-sitters having no problem going to alternatives.

    And for what? Simply to open our eyes about how unbelievably wonderful Metro is on the desktop?

    Question: Does anyone think if MS simply kept refining the Windows 7 desktop in Windows 8, and added Metro as a first-class option but not forced on us, that Windows would have sold better or worse?

    My answer to that question is that Windows would have sold better. We would not have been having these angry discussions and people won't be hating on Windows as much as they do today. There is no planet where the direction MS is taking Windows will have a better outcome than it would have if they took a less forceful approach.

    True story: A friend recently came over to work on some music projects. He is quite technical but computers isn't his main interest and he doesn't follow OS developments. He is however pro-MS as he doesn't like Apple at all (too complicated to explain here). This was the 1st time he saw Windows 8 up close and he hated the "large icons" and felt it looked dumbed down. He basically could not believe this was the direction Windows was taking. And I didn't egg him on, so his unprovoked reaction was quite telling to me. And people wonder why Windows isn't selling well.

  • brian.​shapiro

    , BitFlipper wrote

    *snip*

    The problem is that if we stop complaining about the horrible direction Windows is taking, MS might think we started liking it.

    And if people stopped complaining about the complainers, MS might start to think everyone hates it.

    Starting drama is fun.

  • evildictait​or

    , exoteric wrote

    That said, when you make products that are used by a large part of the world populus, you have to be prepared for feedback, even crazy feedback - but of course moderation helps.

    I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't be critical of Windows8. I'm not even saying that people shouldn't be critical of Windows8 on C9. Constructive feedback and discussion is interesting and that's what C9 is for.

    What I'm objecting to is the unrelenting thread-after-thread borefest of certain people hijacking (or starting) threads dedicated to how Microsoft are teh suck because of a single decision out of millions at Redmond such as the lack of a start menu in Win8.

    We've had that discussion. That's great. Let's move on. We've established beyond all reasonable doubt that threads about Win8 being teh suck for no start menu doesn't magic a start menu into your Windows8 desktop. If there is a way to force Microsoft's hand into putting a start menu back into Windows, it's not via threads on C9, so either go elsewhere on the Internet in search of that magic backdoor into Microsoft, or get over it and write threads about something that isn't hostile to the ever increasingly few Microsoft people on C9.

    Rehashing the same tired arguments of "Win8 sucks because of X" eventually ventures well beyond constructive criticism and feedback and into a hostile anti-Microsoft position.

    Let's put it this way. The people who make C9 most interesting are the developers at Microsoft who make the magic happen - everyone else are dealing in rumours, only these guys know what's really on the horizon. Instead of telling them that the product they worked on for the last few years is rubbish because of policies they have no control over, or narrow (and frankly uninteresting to many of us) teams like UX or whatever makes them go away.

    If I did really care about UI, I wouldn't want to know why you think why the Win8 UI sucks - I'd want to know what the thought processes were at Microsoft that led them to make various decisions, because when you understand the restrictions they had, you might understand that it's not their UI that sucks, but rather you just don't understand the reasons why they did it. For example - some people object to the "big buttons" in Windows8, but utterly fail to realize that without big buttons, you can't have good touch sensitivity.

    I know I'm a technology snob, and I like my kernel and language videos but that's why I'm here at C9. If I wanted to discuss Win8's UI, I'd go to a UI forum and discuss it there. If I wanted to hate at Microsoft, there are literally thousands of fora to do it on. If I wanted to provide feedback to Microsoft, I'd go to connect.microsoft.com or do something with MSDN to provide feedback through that, and if I wanted a start menu desperately in my Windows8 build, I'd google for and install the Stardock start menu and be content knowing that I have my start menu back.

    But I don't. I come to C9 because it's the only place on the Internet where you can not only learn about the Windows heap, the process scheduler, the async keyword and the reasons why the Office 2007 ribbon ended up looking the way it did - but you can actually talk with the people who made them. That's an insider relationship that exists nowhere else on the Internets.

    That is why I get pissed off at people trolling here. This is the only place on the Internet where we get to talk to these wizards of programming. Don't waste the opportunity and scare the wizards back into their Redmond tower by repeating tired arguments about why you think Win8 sucks.

    If Win8 sucks, phone the Microsoft call-centre, write a letter to Ballmer or go and write about your feelings on slashdot. But there are loads of Microsofties who used to be on C9 that aren't now to the detriment of C9 - and that's entirely the fault of trolls and idiots who think that this is a way to get official responses from Microsoft or to bully this multi-billion dollar company with hundreds of millions of users into accepting your view of the world, rather than as a rare and fragile oasis where you can come and speak with the wizards that make it all happen and know what the future holds in a sea of crap, FUD and rumour on the Internet.

  • Lizard​Rumsfeld

    Then all you need to do is stick with the Tech Off forum.  The coffeehouse is far more open, hell many topics have nothing to do with tech at all.  Saying we can't talk about UI on Channel9, especially in this forum, is absolutely ridiculous.

    Hey, MS is "about design" now...right?

  • Bas

    , NitzWalsh wrote

    Then all you need to do is stick with the Tech Off forum.  The coffeehouse is far more open, hell many topics have nothing to do with tech at all.  Saying we can't talk about UI on Channel9, especially in this forum, is absolutely ridiculous.

    Hey, MS is "about design" now...right?

     

    Well, good job proving evildictator's point by being an utter tool about it.

  • JoshRoss

    Generic Forum Image

  • kettch

    QFT

    You make more sense than most of the posts in this thread.

  • itsnotabug

    , BitFlipper wrote

    Question: Does anyone think if MS simply kept refining the Windows 7 desktop in Windows 8, and added Metro as a first-class option but not forced on us, that Windows would have sold better or worse?

    Exactly this. It's almost like some marketing/MBA-type higher up decided to cram this new UI down everyone's throats in order to leverage Windows desktop dominance into the phone and tablet realm. Maybe he/she was surrounded by people who were afraid to say this was a bad idea. This kind of culture does not produce good software... Did they even look at OSX? Their app store is a desktop application because it's a desktop OS. The desktop shouldn't be an "app" on a desktop OS.

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