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No love but money, $500!

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  • User profile image
    rectifier

    This Peter guy makes me sick. We've all seen it before. The wanna-be software developer who can't quite develop software, but forges ahead anyway, using stolen code and solutions - or perhaps code they paid a very small amount for. Their intention is to 'get rich' on the backs of those who actually have capabilities, without ever adequately paying those who made their ambitions possible.

    For most programmers, I believe $500 is nowhere near enough to get in bed with someone like this. They would forever come to haunt you if you did take this project. For the next decade, any time there is the slightest (sometimes unrelated) problem, they will be knocking on your door... demanding it be fixed.. hey, maybe for another $500 per year, lol.

    If you're going to be a businessman, at least do it right and hire some competent programmers. Trolling the message boards asking for HELP HELP like a blathering fool isn't the way to go.

    When you release your final software, what do you intend to do about maintenance? But I guess you, the master programmer Peter, can do the maintenance, eh?

    Perhaps this is the big problem with making programming too easy...

  • User profile image
    JohnAskew

    @rectifier: Whoa. You sign up today and this is your first post. Your job is providing software that provides the information that PeterDouglas is looking to find in Windows 8.

    I sense more disingenuity. No one would bother wasting their time to register a new account with C9 to 'dogpile' a troll as you have done. So perhaps this is the aforementioned notorious troll who's adding flames to his own post. Either way, rectifier, your post is not warranted - we don't dogpile.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    I'm not sure why so many niners are getting angry about this. It seems simple to me.

    Outsourcing development isn't just not-evil it's common practice - indeed the entire of vWorker is built on exactly this idea of someone putting money into escrow whilst someone else does the work.

    In fact, almost no programmers own the business they're selling software through - Microsoft is a case in point where money is made "off the back" of getting software developers to do work where Microsoft holds the rights in exchange for a salary.

    But anyway, In answer to your question, Peter, yes. There are people here who can do what you're asking. I'm not sure if any of them would really want to do it for $500, but your best bet is to go somewhere like vWorker and escrow the money there and then cross-post the link to the contract here to encourage people to apply.

    That way you allow niners to bid safe in the knowledge that the money will be there when the dust clears at the end of the contract, it gives you safety knowing that someone here won't run off with your cash (evildictaitor is my real name, but not everyone else here are so open about who they are).

  • User profile image
    Blue Ink

    , evildictait​or wrote

    I'm not sure why so many niners are getting angry about this. It seems simple to me.

    Outsourcing development isn't just not-evil it's common practice - indeed the entire of vWorker is built on exactly this idea of someone putting money into escrow whilst someone else does the work.

    ...

    Can't speak for anybody else, of course, but I would never outsource anything I don't have a clear understanding of. It's ok to look for excellence elsewhere, when all I can hope to get internally is a mediocre job, or else, it would make sense to outsource menial work that would just tie up resources better spent tackling harder problems.

    In either case, I know there's recourse to disaster as I can use money and overtime to deliver anyway.

    Outsourcing a critical part of your project because you don't know how to do it is a recipe for disaster, and if you have ever been called in to fix one of those disasters you would get angry as well.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , Blue Ink wrote

    *snip*

    Can't speak for anybody else, of course, but I would never outsource anything I don't have a clear understanding of. It's ok to look for excellence elsewhere, when all I can hope to get internally is a mediocre job, or else, it would make sense to outsource menial work that would just tie up resources better spent tackling harder problems.

    In either case, I know there's recourse to disaster as I can use money and overtime to deliver anyway.

    Outsourcing a critical part of your project because you don't know how to do it is a recipe for disaster, and if you have ever been called in to fix one of those disasters you would get angry as well.

    If you never outsource anything, then you are limited by the quality and number of your own staff. For example, you probably don't employ a full time performance optimisation consultant because they are hideously expensive and would be sitting idle for 300 days a year in any given small development house. But if you just hire them for a week or so every six months, you might get the expert help you need for part of a project without needing to retain them as staff across the rest of the year.

    You're right that the owner of the project needs to understand the project, but you're making the mistake of thinking that understanding the code is the same as understanding the project. The head of a bank probably doesn't understand how their online website works, but probably understands the risk to the bank better than the developers writing the code.

    Try and be careful not to make overt judgements on people who don't have the same skills that you have and dismiss them as "stupid" or "worthless". Often these people just have a different set of skills that you probably don't understand or appreciate, like customer management, sales, or being able to run the finance and relationships part of running a company, without which the company simply wouldn't work.

    If he has the money and wants some code that just works, good luck to him. That's the same reason why I didn't code my own version of Office and Windows. It's not because I can't, it's more the fact that my time is better spent earning money and giving a small fraction of that money to Microsoft to code it for me. That's kind of how business works.

    Reducing everything to a "yeah, but he doesn't understand the code - what a silly muppet" is trite and foolish. 

  • User profile image
    PaoloM
  • User profile image
    PeterDouglas

    @JohnAskew: Email me bank wire transfer information and he'll receive the money within 3 business days.

  • User profile image
    PeterDouglas

    @MasterPie: I cannot afford more than $500.

  • User profile image
    PeterDouglas

    @rectifier: I think you pretty ill and need to seek counselling. ALL programmers work for money. Some sell code, some sell software. You should return whatever you are smoking, its expiration date was probably long time ago.

  • User profile image
    PeterDouglas

    To all you guys who worry about how to maintain the code etc. It seems that none of you actually understand my problem. I do not ask for people to write an entire application for me. It is a specific issue which I have been unable to solve. Bear in mind, I have been talking to many other ( famous ) programmers ( I am not allowed to name them because they work closely with Microsoft ) and even THEY could not solve this.

    The final code is most likely simple as long as you know HOW to do it. It is not a math problem where you can say "You are too stupid to solve this.". This issue has to do with poor documentation on MSDN and no source code samples.

    It is proven specially when some of you suggest $500 is too low for this according to yourselves "simple" "tiny" issue.

    Even a foreach-loop is complex is you do NOT know how to do it nor have ANY good documentation for it.

    I have been a developer since the 1990s, I'm not a total noobie. I used to eat Assembly lunch. If this issue was simple, you guys would paste the code here already. Why don't you ask all others who post questions in Tech Off to pay you $$$ and nag about how $500 is too low.

    First it's too simple to solve, now the price is too low.

    The reason for $500 for this "simple" issue is that I have no time to solve it myself. It is a side project. Has nothing to do with my work and I am not in school or something like that. I'm probably older than most of you.

    Most of you are just pathetic to watch.

    @evildictator: you seem to be the only "reasonable" people around and actually trying to help. I did not even think about using vWork or sites like that because panic paying people for small problem solving is a rather "normal" thing to do in many, shall we say FRIENDLIER places. I thank you for your help.

    I have done it for years and years and Channel 9 is the only and only place where people call me names, tell me to "grow a pair" ( wtf? ) for asking specific code related help and putting up money for getting help a little quicker.

    Every other person I emailed directly have been most respectful to me, most helpful and been putting hours to help me WITHOUT even asking for money EVEN WHEN I OFFERED THEM. They failed to solve this, however.

    Bear in mind, I HAVE solved this working in Windows 7 x64 but it will not work in Windows 8 for some reason.

    Not all of you of course but most of you who jump on me for asking for help IN A PROGRAMMING TECH FORUM are just sad stories, unpolite and absolute lowest of the low.

    You not only lack technical skills to help, even for $500, but you just insult people when they ask for help. Pathetic creatures. If there was on ounce of shame in you, you would be melting to Earth's core by now.

    You might put on $1000 clothes but lowest of the low, is what you are no matter how you dress that pig.

    Filth, absolute filth is what I see here in Channel 9.

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    Don't let the door hit your * on your way back where you came! Sad

  • User profile image
    Blue Ink

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    If you never outsource anything, then you are limited by the quality and number of your own staff. For example, you probably don't employ a full time performance optimisation consultant because they are hideously expensive and would be sitting idle for 300 days a year in any given small development house. But if you just hire them for a week or so every six months, you might get the expert help you need for part of a project without needing to retain them as staff across the rest of the year.

    You're right that the owner of the project needs to understand the project, but you're making the mistake of thinking that understanding the code is the same as understanding the project. The head of a bank probably doesn't understand how their online website works, but probably understands the risk to the bank better than the developers writing the code.

    Try and be careful not to make overt judgements on people who don't have the same skills that you have and dismiss them as "stupid" or "worthless". Often these people just have a different set of skills that you probably don't understand or appreciate, like customer management, sales, or being able to run the finance and relationships part of running a company, without which the company simply wouldn't work.

    If he has the money and wants some code that just works, good luck to him. That's the same reason why I didn't code my own version of Office and Windows. It's not because I can't, it's more the fact that my time is better spent earning money and giving a small fraction of that money to Microsoft to code it for me. That's kind of how business works.

    Reducing everything to a "yeah, but he doesn't understand the code - what a silly muppet" is trite and foolish. 

    I never said you shouldn't outsource, nor that you need to "understand the code". Take your performance guru example, for instance: I don't have problems calling one in to make an application better (even much, much better); I wouldn't sleep at night, though, if the success of my project relied on someone being able to make it run 1000% faster than I know is possible.

    Feasibility of critical features is what makes a difference to me: I don't need to be able to do it myself (not without an unreasonable amount of training and effort), I just need to know how it's done or, in other words, that it can be done without having to believe in black magic.

    This is not some abstract development philosophy: if you can be successful stitching black boxes together, good for you; in my experience that's not how it works out though, which is why I steer clear of that practice and strongly advise against it.

    And, for the record: I was responding to your comment about the evils of outsourcing; I most definitely didn't judge the OP nor called him names. Not sure where you read all that in my post.

  • User profile image
    PeterDouglas

    @Blue Ink:You are correct but not all "open source" code is a black box to the programmer. If you break down your project into smaller parts, clearly it is possible to send each small part to a developer and make him build that specific function.

    It is a common practice for example in a project where the end goal should not be revealed to the ones building its parts.

    Say you want a program to list *.txt files. Open a file on a click and then print it.

    One programmer makes the listing function. Another makes the open file function and the third creates a print function which eats a file content or file name.

    The project is then easy to setup. Faster than when only one guy doing it.

    ps. Thank you for being civil unlike most of the other filthy ones around. One of them even followed me here http://processhacker.sourceforge.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=8 trying to prevent others to help me. How is that for a Channel 9 "experience"? Clearly shows what kind of people are hanging around here. Probably that's why 90% of the posters here are same ones year in and year out. Pretty sad.

    Wink

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    , PeterDouglas wrote

    Probably that's why 90% of the posters here are same ones year in and year out. Pretty sad.

    Wink

    That includes you then Blushing

     

  • User profile image
    rectifier

    I did not mean to dogpile, it was just my frustration at how little programmers' time is worth. While this may be a simple thing to do (for those who know how), it still requires considerably more time than you'd think. That includes planning, setting up the job, requirement gathering, communication, integration, and later maintenance. Oh, then there is liability, not to mention the equipment to develop the solution on. The actual coding time may be small, but the job time is well in excess of $500. The BIGGEST price is simply getting involved with a person like this, and later maintenance requests. (all code needs maintenance at some point, though I'd think Peter would agree)

    Also, it is not fair to equate time to solve with the amount the solution is worth. Difficulty of the problem, AND how rare the necessary skillset are HUGE factors. I mean, it make take a nuclear engineer 2 hours to show you to design an atomic bomb, is that worth $500 too? ;p

    My point was not that outsourcing is wrong. Outsourcing is essential.

    My point was that $500 is an insult, and the intention here is to develop software without a comprehensive understanding of that software. Doing this is a recipe for disaster.

    Microsoft and other software companies *employ* their programmers. They pay them quite well from what I hear. That's the difference. It is fine for them to make money, and take care of those who made it possible. Paying $500 here and there to get some cobbled together software isn't... well, it just isn't the way it works. You must understand every aspect of your code in depth to be able to later maintain it, or have access to those who can maintain it. That's why you need a programmer on staff, IMHO.

    More power to you and I hope your software does well. I just hope you realize the value of programmers a bit more.

    @JohnAskew: LOL, you are a smart man, though not 100% right about me ;p. I actually just get a lot of these requests myself. I just prefer us programmers have jobs out there, not never-ending tidbits of tiny contract work that barely sustain us, while the 'businessmen' get rich. I also don't like the idea of ANYONE publishing code they don't fully understand, or have people on staff who understand.

  • User profile image
    rectifier

    I would also say that Peter's description of modular coding is missing one *huge* piece. It would be great to divide everything so neatly, but these pieces must talk to each other, and work together harmoniously. How tightly coupled things are depends a lot on how much communication need be had between programmer A and B. So, I wholly disagree that you can farm out 'function X' and not expect the author of that function to also, by mandate, get involved, or have influence on, other aspects of the program. Sometimes you can isolate it with a well defined and behaved interface, but normally there is at least some interdependence, and some is all it takes to be intertwined into the larger solution.

    Again, as I said in my previous post (right above), Microsoft and other software companies EMPLOY programmers, and treat them well. The contract labor they do farm out, they likewise pay well for. If the price here was $1500, I'd jump in and give him a solution myself.. that is what it would cost to 'get involved', for me.

  • User profile image
    PeterDouglas

    @rectifier: So $500 for a "simple" question on a forum is now too low? Needs maintaining? Support? What are you talking about? *lol*

  • User profile image
    PeterDouglas

    @rectifier: My example was from an old but actual project. You are just blowing smoke because you want to get paid higher than normal. A print function doesn't have to be expensive. It can "talk" to other parts with ease. It's not sending a rocket to the moon.

    Not all projects are simple of course, but MANY are.  You are afraid of outsourcing, that's basically what it comes down to.

    Heck, I am too! But it doesn't mean it is always a bad thing. Be objective.

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