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OK, Microsoft has gone crazy

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  • User profile image
    wkempf

    The uproar of the Win8 demo and the comments about HTML/JavaScript were very damaging. Not just to Microsoft, but to the independent developers who now have "hard sells" when trying to get their customers to spend any money using pretty much any Microsoft tech. They should have learned from the Muglia disaster, but they didn't. They made a much bigger mistake this time around.

    Then we get "official" word from Microsoft employees that they can't comment about this. We're supposed to "just wait until BUILD" when supposedly they'll be able to tell us that the concerns were unfounded. Of course, that means until September there will be nothing but an increase in developer angst, and I'm sure several contracts lost by independent developers. Stupid. Microsoft really stepped in it, worse than they ever have (which is saying a lot, it seems).

    But wait. It doesn't stop there.

    http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2011/06/06/join-us-for-build.aspx

    What's special about BUILD? It will be the first broad hands-on unveiling of the
    next version of Windows and its new app model featuring HTML5 and
    JavaScript. In short, building Web-connected apps for the next Windows is as
    easy as building for the modern Web.

    Really? If the official stance is that nothing more can be said about this disaster until BUILD, why the hell is an official blog piling onto the problem? Why are you saying ANYTHING at this point. Either lift the gag and alleviate some of the FUD, or shut the F up! How hard is it to understand this? Microsoft is imploding right now, and some major damage control is needed. Do NOT make it worse by continuing to communicate the wrong message, no matter how important you think it is to promote your shiny new toy.

    Sorry for the rant, but in my mind this has just escalated beyond anything I could have ever expected.

     

  • User profile image
    Dr Herbie

    This is just business as normal for Microsoft:  they come up with a new framework and all they say for the next 6 months after launch will be "We've got NEW stuff, come and look at the NEW stuff, it's all NEW, see how NEW it is, it's so NEW".

    You ask about the old stuff and no-one is interested in evangelising it.  This is exactly what happened when WPF came out (no-one made new videos of WinForms stuff once WPF was announced, despite the face that it's still widely used).

    This is just the development PR machine trying to drum up interest in the next new shiny bits. It doesn't mean the old stuff is lost, it just means that the excitable evangelists won't be talking about it.

     

    Herbie

     

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    Christ on a cracker, people, calm the f*ck down. 

    If you've made it this far into life, you should be quite able to detect the difference between marketing BS and actual reality.  If you aren't the person who makes decisions about technology then convey it to the folks that do. 

    I'd much rather have foreshadowing of what might happen so we can all comment on what we do and don't like about it.  This gives MS a chance to adjust...which they do.  As far back as I can remember, they've NEVER released a major product with the exact same features as those touted years in advance. 

    The alternative is the giant festival of stupid that occurs when Apple wants to 'unveil' something.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , Dr Herbie wrote

     

    This is just the development PR machine trying to drum up interest in the next new shiny bits. It doesn't mean the old stuff is lost, it just means that the excitable evangelists won't be talking about it.

    And that's exactly what customer (whom we write software for) listen & respond to. How are you supposed to sell a customer on developing their app in Silverlight/WPF when Microsoft made it pretty clear Silverlight/WPF is now legacy like Winforms?

    They could have sold the shiny new desktop that was comprised of Silverlight but no windev went "not invented here" on us, thre shiny on it, and Ballmer bought it hook, line, and sinker.

    WK's got it spot on. Economically it screws things up for us devs. What do will do until next year? Oh that's right convince our customers who just spent boatloads on a Silverlight/WPF app still in incubation that "it's ok... your app will still run on Windows 8". For new projects what do we tell them? Well XAML is kinda like HTML5...

    One other piece I don't hear people talking about is the vast loss of open source code and published experience around Silverlight/WPF that won't be there for this next development platform. You'll go to Google on how to solve a problem and find nothing but crappy MSDN documentation. IMO, the windev guys just arrogantly sit there an say "Hey it will eventually get there. People just need time to get over the change." Well for anyone from windev that happens to read this post a big shout out to you by the letters F and U.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    wkempf

    I don't think either of you quite get what I said here. I'm well aware this is marketing, and the "concerns" about HTML/JavaScript from devs are in many ways overblown and stupid (though I'll stick to my guns that using these even as options here is stupid and doomed to failure, again). But the marketing failed. Microsoft shored up and took an official stance of not talking about it. Then they turn around continue the failed marketing!

    "Doctor! Doctor! It hurts when I do this!"

    "Then don't do it!"

    If you can't put the fires out, then don't be fanning the flames. That's pretty simple to understand, no?

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , ScanIAm wrote

     

    The alternative is the giant festival of stupid that occurs when Apple wants to 'unveil' something.

    Microsoft is right on track... FOS will start with the new era of windev and Windows 8.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    @DeathByVisualStdio:

    You pitch software based on how your customer, client, or organization thinks:

    Customer DispositionTech
    Play It SafeWinforms/ASP.Net
    Lookin to the FutureWPF/SL
    OOOOOh Shiny!HTML5/JS
  • User profile image
    figuerres

    , ScanIAm wrote

    @DeathByVisualStdio:

    You pitch software based on how your customer, client, or organization thinks:

    Customer DispositionTech
    Play It SafeWinforms/ASP.Net
    Lookin to the FutureWPF/SL
    OOOOOh Shiny!HTML5/JS

    if only it was that simple....

    yes a lot of this is nutty marketing bs where MS is trying to say they are with it.

    and that's the problem, MS does not have the patented iRDF that another company has...

    they are not making the message convincing, they are just making it totally apperent that they are playing "catch up" and that makes the whole thing end up looking lame.

    it sucks on so many levels as really MS did do a ton of work that lead to a huge amount of what's happening today... but with the average 5 minute attention span most folks never know the truth.

    IE:  Media center, Tablet PC, MS AJAX (the first one), PocketPC etc....  all of them have driven a lot of the stuff that has just now taken off in a big way (in the last 1-2 years)

    MS did them ... others are now getting credit for the first mass market consumer products that we have seen.

    Now MS wants to get in on it but looks like they came late to the game that they helped start.

     

  • User profile image
    aL_

    @wkempf:

    i agree that its a stupid post that doesnt  help at all.. someone at microsoft thought this would be the damage control that is needed ("featuring" html/js not "entirly based on" html/js)but they are obviously way off..

    im guessing someone a bit closer to the devs/community figgured they had to do something, but they where still gagged by upper management terrible PR policy ("dont tell them anything, it'll make them like us more, it works for apple dont it??"). so they wrote this..

    then again, it is the ie-blog so them talking about web tech is expected i guess, moronic in this context, but expected

    hopefully the flames the post is getting will get someone higher up at microsoft to realise the massive c*ckup they've done and do something proper about it..

     

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    It's obvious Microsoft wanted to do a big Apple style reveal at BUILD, it also ought to be obvious at this point that they've screwed it up. It works for Apple because they reveal everything at once, it's the only way you can do that. Half mentioning something then expecting everyone to sit around for your 'real' reveal just makes you look stupid.

  • User profile image
    exoteric

    Microsoft is just positioning itself to make Windows a first class platform for Web apps, just as Google is positioning ChromeOS. I can't understand how that so easily escapes people. I would be shocked if WPF and SL would be suddenly "deprecated" seeing as Visual Studio is built on it and it was a giant effort to create the frameworks. This is embrace and extend at its best, making Windows a first class application platform from multiple points of view - whether you are a nativr, managed or Web developer. Democratizing development to use DevDiv lingo. It sounds pretty cool. I will agree with one thing though: someone should outline the vision and pieces so that all the fear-mungering and FUD can be put to rest.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    @wkempf: I like to think that I am laid back in general, but Microsoft are standing at the edge of a precipice with gale force winds behind them, thinking the gales will go away, and burying their heads between their legs will see them forced off that precipice.

    As someone that has invested in .NET in general, up to and including WPF, I will change to Apple or Java, depending on what transpires. I am not afraid of learning something new, but it seems a waste of time investing in a company that keeps rewriting and reinventing the wheel.

    There is not a hope in hell that I will continue to be a .NET developer should this hyperbole turn out to be prescience. Not a hope in hell!

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    Fine - here's a response: Microsoft will continue to support old applications in exactly the same way that they always have. Happy now?

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    , vesuvius wrote

    As someone that has invested in .NET in general, up to and including WPF, I will change to Apple or Java, depending on what transpires.

    Apple or Java? What exactly do you do that makes you unsure about choosing two completely divergent technologies?

     I am not afraid of learning something new, but it seems a waste of time investing in a company that keeps rewriting and reinventing the wheel.

    Then Apple is out for you. You may want to ask Adobe and that Carbon64 affaire...

    There is not a hope in hell that I will continue to be a .NET developer should this hyperbole turn out to be prescience. Not a hope in hell!

    We have a saying in Italy, that basically translates to: put your * in a bowl of cold water and calm down.

    I find very healthy to start with these assumptions: You know nothing. And nobody is out to get you because, well, nobody really cares about you.

    Makes for a much better lifestyle.

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    @evildictaitor: That's missed the point of even the most jaded of doubters. No one has questioned whether or not legacy apps will work. After all, that was demoed in the video that started this PR nightmare.

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    Apple or Java? What exactly do you do that makes you unsure about choosing two completely divergent technologies?

    If I am honest, this is selfish of me, and self preservation at its most obvious. I worry about my future. I work for myself, and up till this announcement I was constantly turning work down because of the interest there is in WPF. I had a meeting with some senior management today, that are concerned about the announcement. This is a greenfield project written in WPF, they need to be certain that they can build on top of the WPF framework for at least the next decade, and not only that it will be supported, but that further enhancement will be made. WPF is by no means optimized. In this internet age bad news travels fast and I fear I may be out of work with no-one willing to further invest in WPF until clarity is provided.

    We have a saying in Italy, that basically translates to: put your * in a bowl of cold water and calm down.

    I should not need to be doing this at all. I took a decision, after a lot of information from DPE and Microsoft that there was a future in the platform. WPF is huge and it takes a long time to be proficient. Even if I make another bad decision and bet on Apple, nothing will compare with this. I think it injudicious (at best) to have a user base of millions of .NET application developers and say to them. Look now millions of web developers are going to do your job, and don't worry in the mean time, we will speak with you in three months or so. If that isn't a perfect recipe for indignation, I don't know what else is?

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    , evildictait​or wrote

    Fine - here's a response: Microsoft will continue to support old applications in exactly the same way that they always have. Happy now?

    That is not an acceptable solution. So what you are saying is that anything that isn't an HTML5/JS crApplet would be considered legacy in Windows 8. There are many real applications that never was, isn't, and never will be able to be shoved into a browser. Once again I bring up this example. So any future version of that application would forever be considered a legacy application unless the whole thing is re-written in wonderful HTML5/JS.

    I'm still baffled by the fact that some people think a browser is the answer to everything.

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    , vesuvius wrote

    Apple or Java? What exactly do you do that makes you unsure about choosing two completely divergent technologies?

    If I am honest, this is selfish of me, and self preservation at its most obvious. I worry about my future. I work for myself, and up till this announcement I was constantly turning work down because of the interest there is in WPF. I had a meeting with some senior management today, that are concerned about the announcement. This is a greenfield project written in WPF, they need to be certain that they can build on top of the WPF framework for at least the next decade, and not only that it will be supported, but that further enhancement will be made. WPF is by no means optimized. In this internet age bad news travels fast and I fear I may be out of work with no-one willing to further invest in WPF until clarity is provided.

    We have a saying in Italy, that basically translates to: put your * in a bowl of cold water and calm down.

    I should not need to be doing this at all. I took a decision, after a lot of information from DPE and Microsoft that there was a future in the platform. WPF is huge and it takes a long time to be proficient. Even if I make another bad decision and bet on Apple, nothing will compare with this. I think it injudicious (at best) to have a user base of millions of .NET application developers and say to them. Look now millions of web developers are going to do your job, and don't worry in the mean time, we will speak with you in three months or so. If that isn't a perfect recipe for indignation, I don't know what else is?

    It is apparent that you just hear what you want to hear.

    Sure, .NET will not be present in Windows 8. Everything will have to be coded in HTML5/JavaScript and there will be a special runtime agent (written in HTML5/JavaScript, of course) that will kill any other process running on the machine. DevDiv have been officially dissolved a year ago and there won't be any more tools or updates to WPF or Silverlight. Actually, Silverlight 5 beta never happened, it was just a dream..NET developers (or at least the ones that post on forums) are not a bunch of retards that react like headless chickens whenever anything new is shown to them.

    Are you feeling better now?

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