Coffeehouse Thread

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  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    Windows8 is at least 18 months away from RTM. I'm going to take a chill pill and pretend that the AllThingsD demo was just that, a demo. Who knows? Stranger things have happened.

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    Well yeah, think about how different the Longhorn demos were from the released Windows Vista Smiley

    or even the early demos and builds of Windows XP. It looked (and behaved) nothing like the final. Remember the "Watercolor" theme, or the "Activity Centers" that were meant to make the "inductive UI" a more prominent part of the experience?

    In the end, only System Restore and the Help and Support Centers made it to the final. It's a good thing too because they had an inductive UI for Windows Media Player too, and that was awful.

  • User profile image
    LCARSNxG

    I have seen a lot of comments (intentionally vague) from Microsoft employees both here and in the Silverlight.net forums. They all seem to have the general feel of:

    1. I don't want to loose my job.
    2. You haven't heard the whole story.
    3. Stop this speculation.
    4. Wait until Build in september for the whole story.
    5. I am not confirming or denying anything but there is more you don't know.
    6. I don't want to loose my job.

    At this point in time I kind of get the feeling that what they really want to say is:

    "GEEZ! All we did was mention that we are adding a new option for development. We never said we are going to throw out existing development options. We also never said that we weren't incorporating the existing development options like Silverlight into the immersive shell (which we are but you will find out the details at Build when we make some exciting announcements)."

    But maybe that's just my impression. I hope it's right.

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    In the end, only System Restore and the Help and Support Centers made it to the final. It's a good thing too because they had an inductive UI for Windows Media Player too, and that was awful.

    It's funny that the parts they kept were the parts most activity targeted for malware. And, Windows Media Player, in every release of Windows, seems out of place. But then again, Windows isn't known for its visual consistency. The inclusion of Java into the BluRay spec guaranteed that WMP wouldn't ever support it. Most media players look crapy, but that's fine if they work. I haven't tried it, but, does the WMP in Windows7 play DVDs out of the box?

    -Josh

     

  • User profile image
    scout

    sinofsky will make sure whatever shown on D9 will end up in the fnal product

  • User profile image
    LCARSNxG

    , JoshRoss wrote

     And, Windows Media Player, in every release of Windows, seems out of place.

    I noticed that in the immersive shell, media files open in a full screen WP7 style player. I hope they kill Windows Media Player completely in favor of this. Or at least replace it with Zune.

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    @LCARSNxG

    1. I don't want to loose my job.
    2. You haven't heard the whole story.
    3. Stop this speculation.
    4. Wait until Build in september for the whole story.
    5. I am not confirming or denying anything but there is more you don't know.
    6. I don't want to loose my job.

    I've seen that sentiment too, and I wonder if anyone was actually fired. I don't think hanging the sword of damocles over the heads of developer forum moderators is the best way to keep the community happy.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    , LCARSNxG wrote

    I have seen a lot of comments (intentionally vague) from Microsoft employees both here and in the Silverlight.net forums. They all seem to have the general feel of:

    1. I don't want to loose my job.
    2. You haven't heard the whole story.
    3. Stop this speculation.
    4. Wait until Build in september for the whole story.
    5. I am not confirming or denying anything but there is more you don't know.
    6. I don't want to loose my job.

    At this point in time I kind of get the feeling that what they really want to say is:

    "GEEZ! All we did was mention that we are adding a new option for development. We never said we are going to throw out existing development options. We also never said that we weren't incorporating the existing development options like Silverlight into the immersive shell (which we are but you will find out the details at Build when we make some exciting announcements)."

    But maybe that's just my impression. I hope it's right.

    It almost seemed too obvious that SL would be the linchpin for whatever interface they came up with for the "immersive experience" of tablet devices. This HTML5+JavaScript thing came way out of left field. I can imagine Microsoft is going to hear an earful at the Build Windows event.

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    , LCARSNxG wrote

    I have seen a lot of comments (intentionally vague) from Microsoft employees both here and in the Silverlight.net forums. They all seem to have the general feel of:

    1. I don't want to loose my job.
    2. You haven't heard the whole story.
    3. Stop this speculation.
    4. Wait until Build in september for the whole story.
    5. I am not confirming or denying anything but there is more you don't know.
    6. I don't want to loose my job.

    At this point in time I kind of get the feeling that what they really want to say is:

    "GEEZ! All we did was mention that we are adding a new option for development. We never said we are going to throw out existing development options. We also never said that we weren't incorporating the existing development options like Silverlight into the immersive shell (which we are but you will find out the details at Build when we make some exciting announcements)."

    But maybe that's just my impression. I hope it's right.

    The problem is that the wording was such that it sounded like HTML5/JS was the only option. The fact that this thing is getting so much attention proves the uncertainty that this created. Whether it is true or not is a critical piece of information which could affect development decisions of current and upcoming projects. The idea that the .Net platform might very well be deprecated will throw up all sorts of red flags for projects currently in planning stages or early development stages. To minimize that is just wrong.

    MS screwed up by creating this confusion in the first place, and they should fix it. Unfortunately it seems they are protecting the details for the sake of creating some sort of dramatic "reveal" at BUILD. All while being oblivious to the damage that is currently being done to the .Net platform and the whole development community.

    Personally I think the whole idea is too stooopid to be true. There's just no way future Windows applications will all have to be HTML5/JS crApplets. It just doesn't add up.

  • User profile image
    LCARSNxG

    , BitFlipper wrote

    *snip*

    The problem is that the wording was such that it sounded like HTML5/JS was the only option. The fact that this thing is getting so much attention proves the uncertainty that this created. Whether it is true or not is a critical piece of information which could affect development decisions of current and upcoming projects. The idea that the .Net platform might very well be deprecated will throw up all sorts of red flags for projects currently in planning stages or early development stages. To minimize that is just wrong.

    MS screwed up by creating this confusion in the first place, and they should fix it. Unfortunately it seems they are protecting the details for the sake of creating some sort of dramatic "reveal" at BUILD. All while being oblivious to the damage that is currently being done to the .Net platform and the whole development community.

    Personally I think the whole idea is too stooopid to be true. There's just no way future Windows applications will all have to be HTML5/JS crApplets. It just doesn't add up.

    I agree. I hate to say it but, Microsoft is terrible at PR and advertising. They just are. They need to realize that, everytime they make an announcement, the world's largest developer base is listening to every word. They also need to realize that CIOs and decision makers are listening intently and planning for upcoming products.

    When the whole "our silverlight strategy has shifted" scare happened, my boss nearly did a "halt the presses" on our innovative flagship product written in Silverlight. And things were going very well with it too. Luckily, Microsoft came out with assurances and he decided to continue. However, they waited WAY too long to come out with those assurances. Rumors and speculation spread like wildfire, despite their credibility.

    Microsoft needs to understand the gravity of their position and take great care with how they craft their messages. They also need to actively spot and squash rumors early on.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @LCARSNxG:

    I really hope you are right. Unfortunatly I think Microsoft's arrogance (or stupidty - you pick) has won out again. They alienate their developer base again and tell us to be patient. For what? For them to tell us it's a better plan to go HTML5/JS because so many people can right apps with that? The question is how many people can right good apps with that? Somebody inside Microsoft blew some seriou smoke up someone else's orifice.

    I think this might be a good time to update my avatar. The suckage is expanding rapidly...

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    Unfortunately lots of the people in marketing at Microsoft focus a lot on what Microsoft will do, rather than what it already does well. You shouldn't be too worried though. Microsoft has a huge amount invested in supporting old technologies, and whilst there are more than a hundred or so developers using the technology Microsoft won't actively drop support for it.

    Even if Microsoft goes down the line of HTML5 is the only technology that Windows now "likes", you'll still have native PE files, .NET, Silverlight and so on still on your machine for the next bazillion years (Windows 7 x86 still supports 16-bit binarys from crying out loud!)

  • User profile image
    CKurt

    You all look so sure SilverLight will be an option to develop for all Windows 8 versions. I'm doubtfull about that. Yes SileverLight wil run on some Windows 8 versions and yes you will be able to write native SilverLight apps and open them up from the new start screen.

    But if SilverLight needs to run in all Windows 8 versions it needs to run on all ARM chips. This means porting the CLR to many different architectures. Creating a JIT for ARM and add optimizations for every ARM instruction set supported. This is a hard job and I don't know if they can pull it off. I sure hope so.

    The fact IF they can pull it off was given more fuel be the statement  "HTML5 and JS will be used to create application that integrate into the new modern shell". Yes, I'm sure they will get to run IE on all ARM platforms so this is the thing they are SURE about will work, so they told everybody about it. They should not have...

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    I think this might be a good time to update my avatar. The suckage is expanding rapidly...

    DeathByHTML5+CSS3+ECMAScript5 ?

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    , JoshRoss wrote

    It's funny that the parts they kept were the parts most activity targeted for malware. And, Windows Media Player, in every release of Windows, seems out of place. But then again, Windows isn't known for its visual consistency. The inclusion of Java into the BluRay spec guaranteed that WMP wouldn't ever support it. Most media players look crapy, but that's fine if they work. I haven't tried it, but, does the WMP in Windows7 play DVDs out of the box

    Windows has shipped with DirectShow codecs for MPEG2 since Windows XP Media Center Edition where it was needed for WMC. Windows Vista and Windows 7 also include the codecs. Before then you had to spend money on a "Media Player XPack" which included an MPEG2 decoder and optionally an MP3 encoder for ripping CDs.

    The agreement with Sun Microsystems prohibited Microsoft from shipping their own not-quite-Java VM and the J++ dev tools. There isn't anything stopping Microsoft from licensing the canonical Sun/Oracle JVM. If Blu-Ray had more presence then it probably will happen by Windows 8 (as no-one likes using ugly third-party playback software), but given people prefer streaming lesser-quality video directly over the Internet its unlikely Blu-Ray will ever achieve the dominance that DVD had. And remember that Apple doesn't support it either.

    , LCARSNxG wrote

    I noticed that in the immersive shell, media files open in a full screen WP7 style player. I hope they kill Windows Media Player completely in favor of this. Or at least replace it with Zune.

    Debatable.

    WMP serves two roles: simple media playback and media library management. Before the "jukebox" WMP7 came out with Windows ME all WMP did was play single files or simple playlists, and there will always be a need for a program that does this. The Zune software is more geared towards library and device management.

    The current WMP12 is a good cross between the two: the "Now Playing" mode is great for playing individual files (but FFS Microsoft, make it easier to show/hide the playlist whilst in that mode!) and the library mode is visible when you ask for it. I see nothing wrong with this approach.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    , W3bbo wrote

    *snip*

    Windows has shipped with DirectShow codecs for MPEG2 since Windows XP Media Center Edition where it was needed for WMC. Windows Vista and Windows 7 also include the codecs. Before then you had to spend money on a "Media Player XPack" which included an MPEG2 decoder and optionally an MP3 encoder for ripping CDs.

    Some versions of Vista include MPEG2 codecs, but not all. Only Home Premium and Ultimate editions, from what I remember. Basically the ones that included Media Center. I think that all versions of 7 do, although possibly not Starter Edition.

    The agreement with Sun Microsystems prohibited Microsoft from shipping their own not-quite-Java VM and the J++ dev tools. There isn't anything stopping Microsoft from licensing the canonical Sun/Oracle JVM.

    You need to go read the Sun/Microsoft judgement again.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    @CKurt:

    Yeah. Didn't the head of Windows development literally just say that these apps have "to be written in HTML5 and JavaScript"? It seems like a lot of wishful thinking that he made some kind of blunder in his speech in front of thousands of people and forget to correct it.

    Personally this kind of thing has reaffirmed everything I've said (and feel free to look at my posting history if you don't believe me) about Silverlight since it came out: that it is a dead end, destined to be an obscure technology in the face of open web technologies. So I welcome the news, but it doesn't surprise me. Tongue Out

  • User profile image
    Ray7

    , Bass wrote

    Personally this kind of thing has reaffirmed everything I've said (and feel free to look at my posting history if you don't believe me) about Silverlight since it came out: that it is a dead end, destined to be an obscure technology in the face of open web technologies. So I welcome the news, but it doesn't surprise me. Tongue Out

    I don't think it surprised anybody. 

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