Coffeehouse Thread

56 posts

Silverlight probably being retired

Back to Forum: Coffeehouse
  • JeremyJ

    I am so baffled as to what the issue is.  As a software engineer it is my job to keep up with technology.  I learn new languages and techniques all of the time.  That is the nature of the job.  I have probably gone through over 20 languages in my career.  They all work with the same basic concepts.  If Silverlight stops being supported then I move on to something else that allows me to get the job done. 

    Back in the day I could write programs in GW-Basic or Pascal.  If I tried to write anything in those languages today I would be laughed at.  Change is necessary.

    The only constant in the technology is change (and fast change at that).  If that is a problem then maybe it is time to look at a new career.

  • vesuvius

    @JeremyJ: You will do with Microsoft at the moment, you will be looking for a new career every two or three years, as I have said I have Android, iOS, OSX and Windows developers, and the non Microsoft products seems to be the best bet, because people can invest in them, without the underlying technology changing every two minutes, like WPF and Silverlight especially has. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors being used at Microsoft, and no firm commitments.

    it is all well to say that you will move on when the next thing comes along, but I have a sense of responsibility for my customers, and think if they spend millions on a project, I want them to continue to extract value from the decisions I took in electing the software used. I am not in the business of selling people dead horses

     

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , vesuvius wrote

    it is all well to say that you will move on when the next thing comes along, but I have a sense of responsibility for my customers, and think if they spend millions on a project, I want them to continue to extract value from the decisions I took in electing the software used. I am not in the business of selling people dead horses

    Damn straight!

  • cbae

    , vesuvius wrote

    @JeremyJ: You will do with Microsoft at the moment, you will be looking for a new career every two or three years, as I have said I have Android, iOS, OSX and Windows developers, and the non Microsoft products seems to be the best bet, because people can invest in them, without the underlying technology changing every two minutes, like WPF and Silverlight especially has. There is a lot of smoke and mirrors being used at Microsoft, and no firm commitments.

    Is this so true with Android or iOS? Silverlight has been around as long as iOS has, and Android, while purchased by Google in 2005, wasn't available to developers until 2007, the same year Silverlight was introduced. If you are to look at Silverlight as of today, it's been at least as stable as both iOS or Android.

    If you want firm commitments, has Google said anything about what's going to happen if Oracle wins its lawsuit against them? Did they say they'd be willing to bite the bullet and pay a licensing fee to Oracle to keep Android the way it is?

  • JeremyJ

    @vesuvius: Just because a language is not supported in the future doesn't mean that the software you wrote for them will automatically stop working.  They are paying for a product.  You deliver them a product.  You make no guarantees that that product will last forever.  That is like saying that I paid a lot of money for Photoshop 1.0.  It should always work no matter what the future holds.  That just isn't realistic.  I wrote software in C++ 17 years ago that will still run even though it was using old tools and an old version of the language.

    I can run Visual Studio 2003, 2005, 2008, and 2010 all side by side to support old applications if I wish.  You may not develop new applications using technology you know will be coming to an end, but that doesn't stop you from maintaining your existing applications for your customers.  I think it is just silly to say that Microsoft keeps changing directions every 2-3 years.  It reallys hasn't changed direction since 2002 (almost a decade) when .NET came out.  It has slowly evolved into more powerful development tools.  That is all that is happening today. 

    I find it funny that people start complaining because Microsoft was so slow to keep up with changing techology (like staying with IE6 for so long).  They were getting left behind and are suffering the consequences of that.  Now they are trying to be more responsive to the changing technology landscape and people are complaining that they are moving too fast.

  • cbae

    @JeremyJ: Classic case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". It's clear that Microsoft really has burned through its goodwill. They get no benefit of the doubt by anybody anymore. The freetards and Apple fanboys will just grin and say karma's a *.

  • vesuvius

    @cbae: Everyone is suing everyone else at the moment, these are external issues, and will never really affect developers or users as there just is far too much money to be made.

    Silverlight has not been privy to any lawsuit and is as alive as a dodo bird, plus the fact that Android and iOS have changed the rules of the game by actually being successful.

    Microsoft have shot themselves in the foot, I don't need to waste my time, in arguments over issues where is is widely acknowledge that Microsoft have lacked cohesion. If I had to have a report by you into software it would be

    1. Use Microsoft for everything
    2. They have never made a mistake
    3. They never will make a mistake
    4. Every mistake they made turned out not to be a mistake
    5. Not using Microsoft is a mistake
    6. Everyone else is a shill for liking and using iOs or Android

    You form a basis for the soundest reasoning in your arguments, even when Microsoft are making mistakes you are there pretending its not true, even if the complaining is coming from disgruntled windows developers that have been developing on the platform for years. I know what I am talking about, and scarcely require ratification, remonstration or repudiation. Your argument is just a way to comfort your obsequiousness, that's all.

     

     

  • Bass

    The answer is simple: don't bet on proprietary software as a platform. If you do, you've locked your own company to the vision of another. With proprietary platforms, you have zero control over your future.

    Even if you don't like the vendor's vision, you are forced to go along because you invested too much in the vendor's vision to pull out.  This reason you people are so frustrated is because of a phenomenon called vendor lock in.

    You might have invested in proprietary technologies because they looked to be more productive or less expensive than open source, but you did not consider the hidden costs. The solution to vendor lock in is to move to open platforms like Linux.

  • cbae

    @Bass: Unless you're prepared to maintain the source code yourself, you're still sort of locked in. If somebody decides to fork Linux and everybody jumps ship to the new flavor and abandons the old one, you're forced to jump ship too.

  • vesuvius

    , JeremyJ wrote

    @vesuvius: Just because a language is not supported in the future doesn't mean that the software you wrote for them will automatically stop working.  They are paying for a product.  You deliver them a product.  You make no guarantees that that product will last forever.  That is like saying that I paid a lot of money for Photoshop 1.0.  It should always work no matter what the future holds.  That just isn't realistic.  I wrote software in C++ 17 years ago that will still run even though it was using old tools and an old version of the language.

    If you read Tim Sneaths blog, they said their were taking a heavy bet on WPF as a platform, as it is the whole of WPF is crippled with a performance bug, and lacks a lot of features that were promised the language from Microsoft indicated they would invest in it for quite some time, even moving Visual Studio to it, that was what made a lot of people think it was a safe bet.

    I can run Visual Studio 2003, 2005, 2008, and 2010 all side by side to support old applications if I wish.  You may not develop new applications using technology you know will be coming to an end, but that doesn't stop you from maintaining your existing applications for your customers.  I think it is just silly to say that Microsoft keeps changing directions every 2-3 years.  It reallys hasn't changed direction since 2002 (almost a decade) when .NET came out.  It has slowly evolved into more powerful development tools.  That is all that is happening today. 

    I am not quite sure we are living in the same universe, Winforms and WPF and Silverlight are all client focused frameworks, where they have changed direction in their client frameworks. Are you suggesting these are all the same and aligned with WinRT?

    I find it funny that people start complaining because Microsoft was so slow to keep up with changing techology (like staying with IE6 for so long).  They were getting left behind and are suffering the consequences of that.  Now they are trying to be more responsive to the changing technology landscape and people are complaining that they are moving too fast.

    I think you are dreaming again there - possibly a deep sleep. They are playing catch up, big time, both in tablets and phones. The key is in your wording i.e. responsive and not proactive. Microsoft could have created an iOS or Phone ages ago, they have always had products in these markets, but lacked the vision and cohesion to ignite the markets

  • vesuvius

    @Bass: Sometimes you think I always disagree with you, but I agree with you in this post. I agree with you completely.

    This won't earn me fans, but I am not part of a clan nor do I want to to be. Microsoft make some great products, but so do other people as well.

  • AndyC

    @DeathByVisualStudio:

    Er, let's look at that shall we:

    , AndyC wrote

    @vesuvius:Steve Ballmer went on stage at BUILD and said very clearly that any app written for WP7 will continue to run on WP8 and 9 and future version of the phone OS. I'm not sure there can be a more solid commitment than that.

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    @AndyC:

    So will SL & WPF apps but their run under the legacy desktop. Balmer has a solid commitment to backwards compatibility but not necessarily providing the best experience.

    , AndyC wrote

    *snip*

    Well they haven't really. Moving a "Metro" Silverlight project to WinRT requires very little effort at all and can easily be absorbed into an upgrade release schedule - it's not like you have to do a major re-write or change the language or anything. And from an end-user perspective, it doesn't matter as long as everything still runs as it did before. Some apps won't make the best use of my phone, but heck that's true of some of the original WP7 apps that haven't been updated to enable Mango specific features too.

    Three posts in a row, both of mine explicitly mentioning WP7 based on the comment vesuvius made on not moving to WP7 development until WP8 comes out in case things change. And I'm obscuring the truth?

    I'm part of the MTV generation and even my attention span isn't quite that short!

  • JeremyJ

    , vesuvius wrote

    *snip*

    If you read Tim Sneaths blog, they said their were taking a heavy bet on WPF as a platform, as it is the whole of WPF is crippled with a performance bug, and lacks a lot of features that were promised the language from Microsoft indicated they would invest in it for quite some time, even moving Visual Studio to it, that was what made a lot of people think it was a safe bet.

    I have never said that Microsoft was infallible.  I personally never used WPF because I didn't feel it was the right tool for the jobs that I was working on (I have used Silverlight though).  Even if I did use it for my projects, they would continue to work even after Microsoft stopped supporting it.  I would also be able to maintain the code by using the tools they were built in.  Future technology does not make someone's choice of using WPF a bad decision because it still achieved their goal.

     

    *snip*

    I am not quite sure we are living in the same universe, Winforms and WPF and Silverlight are all client focused frameworks, where they have changed direction in their client frameworks. Are you suggesting these are all the same and aligned with WinRT?

    I think what we are seeing is the beginning of unifying a lot of seperate technologies into a single framework.  Instead of having to decide between 3 or 4 different technologies you will now have a one-stop-shop that will be able to handle all of the different scenarios.  I will admit though that I haven't researched too much on WinRT.  I tend to wait until things hit public beta before I spend too much time with it.

     

    *snip*

    I think you are dreaming again there - possibly a deep sleep. They are playing catch up, big time, both in tablets and phones. The key is in your wording i.e. responsive and not proactive. Microsoft could have created an iOS or Phone ages ago, they have always had products in these markets, but lacked the vision and cohesion to ignite the markets

    If I were to make a prediction about the future, I would say that the web is going to take on a more app based approach and less of a web page based approach.  Similar to how phones and tablets are working now.  If this proves to be true, then ditching the old web page approach and moving to an app approach does seem proactive to me.  I feel that the wild west days of the internet are numbered.  I think people like more content focused apps instead of having to search endlessly trying to find what they are looking for.  I am sure a lot of people (especially techie people) will disagree, but seeing the explosive growth of smartphones and tablets proves people want that.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , AndyC wrote

    @DeathByVisualStudio:

    Er, let's look at that shall we:

    *snip**snip**snip*

    Three posts in a row, both of mine explicitly mentioning WP7 based on the comment vesuvius made on not moving to WP7 development until WP8 comes out in case things change. And I'm obscuring the truth?

    I'm part of the MTV generation and even my attention span isn't quite that short!

    Your right Andy and I apologize.

    As I've said before it would be refreshing if you'd man up and admit when you're wrong. You are hardly innocent of missing context yourself.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • AndyC

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    Your right Andy and I apologize.

    As I've said before it would be refreshing if you'd man up and admit when you're wrong. You are hardly innocent of missing context yourself.

    Always willing to do so, please do feel free to let me know if I've missed something. Like I said, MTV generation, attention-span of a goldfish and all that.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio
  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @AndyC:

    Here's another: http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/How-long-will-Windows-8-the-terrible-last-Any-bets/bf53a44650e94697b6419f98005e1fae

    While you may disagree with my argument you didn't address the fact that you spun my argument into something unrelated in order to try and validate your point. I called you on it and you played twister rather than manning up to what you did. It's ok Andy; Glenn Beck used to do that too on Fox News in order to make his points and they actually paid him to do that. Maybe you have another career calling you.

  • Dr Herbie

    @DeathByVisualStudio: I generally consider myself a tolerant person, but will you give it a f--king rest.  Bad enough that you won't stop the personal attacks on the other thread, but don't drag it into others.

    Herbie

Comments closed

Comments have been closed since this content was published more than 30 days ago, but if you'd like to continue the conversation, please create a new thread in our Forums, or Contact Us and let us know.