Coffeehouse Thread

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Sinofsky = gonzo

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  • TexasToast

    @spivonious:

    1.  I don't need it but a lot of customers Want it.  Why not please your customers?

    2.  We had flat appearance in DOS.   Do you like bell bottom jeans too?

    3.  Sinofsky was not listening to others and helping them work their ideas on windows 8.  This is especially true for Line of Biz apps being killed by a WPF Silverlight strategy that developers liked. 

    4.  Gates was the reason Microsoft was successful.  He might not have been cutting edge on everything but he was persistent.   The ship is steady and not very fast but it will not sink.

    5.  Agree 100%.   They have some teams and people with no slackers and you cannot cut the bottom 10% just as a policy.   They need to reinvigorate dev teams again.

  • SteveRichter

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAHzErPdiD8

    a Julie Larson video from 2008 demoing touch on a PC.  My immediate question is why has she not been able to get touch accepted on the desktop for 4 years now?  Why expect it to be something people want now?

  • felix9
  • Charles

    , SteveRichter wrote

    What has Julie Green done that qualifies her for such a high position in the company? 



    Things like lead the Windows 8 project, perhaps? She's the right choice. It's great to see women at the top. Beyond this, they are both very capable and proven leaders. Julie comes from a development background and has done an outstanding job in her what-was-current-yesterday role. She'll be a great engineering leader. Tami will rock the business side of things.

    We're all surprised, too, but things happen. Welcome change Smiley
    C

  • spivonious

    Wastingtime - have you used Windows 8? The UI is different, yes, but it is fantastic on a touchscreen and still works on a non-touchscreen with the mouse gestures.

    Put on your "regular user" hat for a few minutes and you'll see how perfect Windows 8 is. My wife is still draining the battery daily on her Vivo Tab. I have heard zero complaints from her.

    Touch is the future. Accept it and embrace it.

  • spivonious

    , TexasToast wrote

    @spivonious:

    1.  I don't need it but a lot of customers Want it.  Why not please your customers?

    2.  We had flat appearance in DOS.   Do you like bell bottom jeans too?

    3.  Sinofsky was not listening to others and helping them work their ideas on windows 8.  This is especially true for Line of Biz apps being killed by a WPF Silverlight strategy that developers liked. 

    4.  Gates was the reason Microsoft was successful.  He might not have been cutting edge on everything but he was persistent.   The ship is steady and not very fast but it will not sink.

    5.  Agree 100%.   They have some teams and people with no slackers and you cannot cut the bottom 10% just as a policy.   They need to reinvigorate dev teams again.

    1. Because we both know that customers don't know what they want. Apple has proven that.

    2. After using Windows 8 for a few months, going back to Windows 7 Aero just feels dated. No one is doing translucent effects anymore. Plus, the flat appearance on the desktop fits in to the Metro UI better. Consistency is good.

    3. He did like having things his way, but I'm not sure he had as much control over DevDiv as was speculated. WPF has some awesome things, but it was slow and didn't get much dev buy-in. Silverlight was a little better, but with the world moving towards HTML5 and plugin-less browsers, its days were always numbered. WinRT takes the best of WPF/SL and matches it with native code. I wish we could use it on desktop apps, but MS is really pushing Metro right now. Trying to use desktop apps with your finger on a touchscreen is next to impossible, so I can understand why they made that decision.

    4. Slow and steady doesn't win the tech race, unless you're content to be Oracle or IBM. I'm glad that Sinofsky and Ballmer are taking a big risk.

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , Charles wrote

    *snip*

    It's great to see women at the top.

    Um, why? Now, don't get me wrong, I have nothing against women (or men for that matter) at the top. Just that I absolutely don't care what gender someone has, as long as the person is fit for the job, no matter the gender.

    The Windows head could be a Martian hermaphrodite for all I care.

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , spivonious wrote

    Wastingtime - have you used Windows 8?

    For the millionth time, yes. Funny how you people keep asking me this, despite my tons of rants about every Metro detail of it.

    , spivonious wrote

    Touch is the future. Accept it and embrace it.

    For what? I am sure, for fart apps and watching porn it is. But how do you write letters with more than two lines on touch? (without bleeding hands that is).

    I could buy the hype if we would get affordable tactile touch devices now, then sure, maybe. You have still issues like the gorilla arm though. But now? Why cripple the desktop? As I said earlier, the pro W8 arguments on laptops and desktops is like poking the eyes out of people and then telling them to get used to it by getting a braille reader and a guide dog. And then going on about how great dogs are and that braille readers improve your touch senses.

  • wastingtime​withforums

    , spivonious wrote

    *snip*

    1. Because we both know that customers don't know what they want. Apple has proven that.

    Apple operates in a entirely different hippsters sphere. Stop aping Apple. Actually, their market share isn't even all that great in smart phones and especially PCs (just tablets, and even there Samsung is eating already). Apple has record profits because of their hippster magic and totally overpriced unit prices. MS can't out-Gucci Gucci.

    , spivonious wrote

    2. After using Windows 8 for a few months, going back to Windows 7 Aero just feels dated. No one is doing translucent effects anymore. Plus, the flat appearance on the desktop fits in to the Metro UI better. Consistency is good.

    Consistency is good, that's why we have two control panels here, two task bars, and multiple GUI paradigms, in one OS. But that's OK.  Aero on the other hand was SUCH a problem that it needed to be killed right away though...

    "the flat appearance on the desktop fits in to the Metro UI" - indeed. Metro has the multi-tasking abilities of Windows 1, so let's give the desktop the style of Win 3.1 as well.

    , spivonious wrote

    3. Silverlight was a little better, but with the world moving towards HTML5 and plugin-less browsers, its days were always numbered.

    No one cared about the plug-in (in the sense as a Flash-replacement) anymore. It was a hit as LOB plattform. That has been killed, good job. And no, WinRT/Metro won't cut it, because Metro doesn't work on anything besides W8, and W8 is a no go in business, thus Silverlight got stoned and WinRT is dead as well in LOB space (and WPF is on life-support). Haven't you just noticed that those people are completely without a sane future-proof client LOB tooling from Microsoft now?

  • kettch

    , spivonious wrote

    Put on your "regular user" hat

    Unfortunately, there are a number of niners who are incapable of that. They'll rant for hours about something completely irrelevant claiming that the average user must have it a certain way or else. I must have gotten access to a Super Secret build of Windows, because my desktop is anything but crippled, it quite simply rocks. </rant> Queue violent reaction in 3...2...1...

    Anyway, my wife does something similar with her Surface RT, although it lasts long enough that she doesn't always think about charging it until Windows complains. She's easily a Power User+ and thinks it's great on tablet, desktop and laptop.

    Sometimes an organization needs somebody with an iron fist to run things for a while. They are able to beat things into shape and bring a vision that otherwise might have been muddled. The problem is that it's not always a good idea for them to stay around after they've played the axe-man role.

     

  • spivonious

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    *snip*

    For the millionth time, yes. Funny how you people keep asking me this, despite my tons of rants about every Metro detail of it.

    *snip*

    For what? I am sure, for fart apps and watching porn it is. But how do you write letters with more than two lines on touch? (without bleeding hands that is).

    I could buy the hype if we would get affordable tactile touch devices now, then sure, maybe. You have still issues like the gorilla arm though. But now? Why cripple the desktop? As I said earlier, the pro W8 arguments on laptops and desktops is like poking the eyes out of people and then telling them to get used to it by getting a braille reader and a guide dog. And then going on about how great dogs are and that braille readers improve your touch senses.

    You plug in a keyboard and type away. It is still Windows, after all.

    I don't understand the gorilla arm argument. You're not going to be constantly touching the screen. You'll reach out to tap something or do a gesture and then go back to the keyboard and mouse. They can all coexist peacefully. Try it out in a store. Touch screens on laptops definitely make sense.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , kettch wrote

    *snip*

    Unfortunately, there are a number of niners who are incapable of that. They'll rant for hours about something completely irrelevant claiming that the average user must have it a certain way or else. I must have gotten access to a Super Secret build of Windows, because my desktop is anything but crippled, it quite simply rocks. </rant> Queue violent reaction in 3...2...1...

     

    The only notion of "must...or else" is the spin Microsoft fanbois put on the idea of "choice". Keep wishing for those violent reactions...

    , spivonious wrote

    *snip*

    2. After using Windows 8 for a few months, going back to Windows 7 Aero just feels dated. No one is doing translucent effects anymore. Plus, the flat appearance on the desktop fits in to the Metro UI better. Consistency is good.

    Both Office 2013 and VS 2012 are inconsistent messes (more so Office). They have removed too many visual cues and make the UI look like a bunch of views written by different people all cobbled together into some sort of Frankenstein. Again VS is not so bad on this mark but Office is terrible. can't wait for command line version of these apps. Of course they'll use a proportionally spaced font to be modern and all that.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • brian.​shapiro

    , TexasToast wrote

    @spivonious:

    2.  We had flat appearance in DOS.   Do you like bell bottom jeans too?

    And before bell bottom jeans, there were straight bottom jeans. We actually went backwards. Bell bottoms were a type of flare, an embellishment on a Plain Jane design, and a fad. For people who liked bell bottoms, going back to straight bottoms was regression to being boring. 3D is also a flare and an embellishment on a Plain Jane design. Maybe 3D was a fad, too.

    I'm not going to argue taste with you, just stop with the "DOS was flat" argument, its a non-starter.

  • elmer
  • TexasToast

    @brian.shapiro: Ok let me put it this way then.   We now have touch with flatness.   The reason I think it is backwards and stupid is when you have the ability to render a 3D button and when you have a touch interface people get feedback by showing a depressed button.   I am looking at internet explorer right now with 3 tabs and it is hard to tell which one is selected.  Its just a color change.  Its not a matter of taste, it is a matter of taking away user interface features and rolling them back to confuse people.  The world is not flat. 

    I was getting used to not having the start button but I found a negative to it.  If you remote desktop into your windows 8 box,  every time you hit the windows key it has to do a full screen repaint which sucks up a lot of bandwidth.    It would have just been easier to leave it in.   I am ok with change,  I am not ok with change to make things work like crap. 

  • elmer

    , TexasToast wrote

    I was getting used to not having the start button but I found a negative to it.  If you remote desktop into your windows 8 box,  every time you hit the windows key it has to do a full screen repaint which sucks up a lot of bandwidth.

    Also, if you remote using a dual-screen, and you have the remote on your R-H screen, finding the 'start' hot-spot with the mouse, is problematic... and if you are someone like me, where using the keyboard is something you try and avoid, then this is quite frustrating.

  • contextfree`

    Good luck to Julie, Jensen & co.  ... please follow through on what you started with Windows 8.

  • magicalclick

    I just read an article about his departure. It appears Sinofsky doesn't play well with others. Doesn't matter how brilliant he is, he makes too many enemies.

    But, there is where the controversy. They put Sinofsky on top because his report is fancier with all the heatmap and statistical data. They give him the power to bark around in the first place. And now they complain he bites too many people. Then, how about doing something before he bites too much?

    As for the Metro full screen not a good choice for many apps such as Skype, I hope they fix that on Win9. Honestly the foundation is already there. Metro can already do tall strip mode. All they need to do is simply put those Strip Metro in a none-resizable window frame and put it on the work space desktop, all done.

    And yeah, hire an intern to put back the win orb in 30 minutes.

    And yeah, continue to improve the unfinished build-in Metro apps so it could work with PC. Like let me see next picture in the same folder.

    Still, Win8 is a great achievement. I am quite amazed how many things they have accomplished. So, I would still prefer to contribute to MS. If he is willing to listen and play well with others, I really hope he continue to work with MS.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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