Coffeehouse Thread

65 posts

So how much does TFS actually cost ...?

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  • spivonious

    @cbae: I think that is how it works, but with only 10 users, a second deployment doesn't make much sense. We are evaluating TFS and have it all on one server (source control, build, sharepoint) and have no performance issues. Our team has 11 devs and 3 testers.

  • cbae

    , spivonious wrote

    @cbae: I think that is how it works, but with only 10 users, a second deployment doesn't make much sense. We are evaluating TFS and have it all on one server (source control, build, sharepoint) and have no performance issues. Our team has 11 devs and 3 testers.

    Yeah, I figured that it wouldn't make sense for a 2nd deployment. I'm just pointing out that the owners of the 5 additional CALs have the privilege of attaching to a 2nd deployment if it ever came to it.

  • W3bbo

    Herbie: why not save your company a load of money and go with Hosted TFS? According to my supplier's price sheet TFS SALs are £2.82 per subscriber per month for Basic services, and £11.82 per subscriber per month for Premium.

  • Bass

    We use Atlassian JIRA where I work. It's a very good piece of software. It seems to be substantially less expensive and easier to purchase than TFS 2010. If you only have 10 developers it costs only $10. There is also code review, continuous integration, wiki components that are similarly only $10.

  • spivonious

    @Bass: Our new parent company uses JIRA too. We're thinking of moving over to it for help desk issue tracking. How does it integrate with source control?

  • Dr Herbie

    @W3bbo: I did suggest hosting, but given that we have very poor internet connectivity (roughly 1Mb between 12 of us) there are technical issues. Additionally, the IP in our source code is the main asset our company owns, and there was a disinclination to trust it's security to an on-line system.

    Herbie

  • Bass

    It integrates very well with Subversion, which is the source control system we use. I think it also has Git, Mercurial, CVS and Perforce support as well.

  • davewill

    YIKES! This thread is painful.  The sales process is supposed to be friction free.

    I've been playing around with TFS 2010 to see if we might want to move to it.  We currently use CVSNT on a server with TortoiseCVS on the client since longer than I can remember.  Combining the overcomplexity of TFS (that I seem to be running into) with this thread and it makes me want to run away from TFS.

  • briankel

    Hi all,

    I can answer this one, I work for Microsoft. Sorry I am late joining this thread, I just noticed it.

    The 5 users you get with TFS 2010 retail are slightly different from CAL's. In Herbie's case, since he has 10 users, he needs to buy 10 CALs. [If he had 5 users, then TFS retail would suffice; if he has 6 users, then he would need 6 CALs.]

    Correction from the above earlier post (my fault): The 5 users you get with TFS 2010 retail enable 5 users to access that particular TFS server; a 6th user would require 1 additional CAL. Also, if those 5 users need to access more than one TFS server, then they will need CAL's. Sorry for the earlier confusion - even us MSFT guys get it wrong sometimes!

    Others are also correct about the "retail pricing" being higher than what you will typically pay, and that you can usually find discounts from resellers. Obviously do the proper diligence to make sure you are buying from a real, licensed reseller. I usually direct customers in the US to this page, but there may be other resellers in your local markets: http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/buy

    FWIW, I raised the above issue to our marketing team because I do not believe it is as clear in the licensing whitepaper as it needs to be. Hopefully we can get that clarified soon.

    And yes, Visual Studio 2010 when purchased with an MSDN Subscription includes not only TFS (the server license) but also the CAL. So if you have 10 people on your team and they own VS Pro with an active MSDN Subscription then you now have 10 CAL's and 10 server licenses (you may wonder what to do with the 10 server licenses, but they are always nice if you want to set up proxy servers in distributed locations, even home offices - the TFS proxy can serve as a "look-aside cache" for giving you a faster performance than needing to fetch files across the WAN every time).

    Also note that generally any time you buy >5 of something you qualify for volume license discounts. So since Herbie needs 10 CALs he would qualify for VL discounts. Talk to the reseller of your choice about this. If your reseller sounds like they don't know what they are talking about, hang up and call a different reseller. Wink

    Finally, my email is briankel AT microsoft DOT com. Email me and I'll try my best to answer you ASAP or hook you up with a local Microsoft developer tools specialist who can work with you to understand your local purchasing options.

    Brian Keller
    Sr. Technical Evangelist
    Visual Studio ALM

  • cbae

    Well, damn, I was right the first time. Having 5 users requires no CAL purchase. Having 6 users requires purchase of 6 CALs. Having 10 users requires purchase of 10 CALs. That's a huge penalty to go from 5 to 6 users.

  • briankel

    Shoot - well, turns out after more clarification from our marketing gurus I was wrong (even us MSFT guys get confused sometimes!). Although this one is in your favor as a customer.

    To go to 6 users you actually only need to purchase 1 CAL. The exception would be if those 6 users needed to access multiple TFS servers; in that case, it makes more sense to buy CALs for them.

    Sorry for the confusion. I have asked for this to be clarified in the licensing whitepaper.

     

  • cbae

    LOL. Further proof that Microsoft needs to simplify its licensing model.

  • Craig_​Matthews

    This thread alone could throw any software piracy case out of court. No one can possibly know if they're compliant, and when they want to be compliant, they have to rely on blog posts linked from obscure message boards to know how much something costs.

     

     

  • evildictait​or

    This thread alone could throw any software piracy case out of court.

    Wishful thinking != reality

    No one can possibly know if they're compliant, and when they want to be compliant, they have to rely on blog posts linked from obscure message boards to know how much something costs.

    If you really want to know if you're legally compliant send an email to legal@microsoft.com and they'll give you a definitive answer. Obscure message board postings and blog posts aren't a defence (otherwise you could justify almost anything by finding a blog post that claims it's legal)

  • Lee_Dale

    , cbae wrote

    Well, damn, I was right the first time. Having 5 users requires no CAL purchase. Having 6 users requires purchase of 6 CALs. Having 10 users requires purchase of 10 CALs. That's a huge penalty to go from 5 to 6 users.

    You get 5 users with TFS and the 6th user requires an additional CAL. So you only have to purchase 1 CAL for the 6th user.

  • Bass

    @evildictaitor:
    So what you are saying is anyone using Microsoft products needs to get licensing approval from legal@microsoft.com? Not sure that makes sense.

    IMO (IANAL), if you have some kind of written confirmation from someone reasonably believed to be a Microsoft employee acting in good faith that what you are doing is legal (eg: briankel above), and you are talking about software products valued under the tens of millions of dollar range you are probably pretty safe. I don't think any reasonable judge will be like "well you didn't e-mail legal@microsoft.com or get Steve Ballmer's direct approval". My understanding is employees are able to act in behalf of the company they work for, that their statements are statements of the company itself (unless stated otherwise). That's why some bloggers are careful to say things like "This blog contains my own opinions and doesn't represent the viewpoint of my employer."

    If their happens to be some kind of internal disagreement on licensing, that's the companies upper management problem to resolve. They should probably fire employees if they cost them significant money with poorly priced products. But they can not reasonably sue a customer for doing something their own employees told that customer was legal and have much of a case.

  • AndyC

    @Bass: I'm not aware of any case where somebody using Microsoft products 'in good faith' was ever in legal trouble. I think that, for the most part, if you're doing what can reasonably be seen as staying within the terms of licenses, you're probably OK. The worst that'll come out of an audit is a notice you're short of a CAL or two here and there. (Not that I in any way speak for Microsoft lawyers of course)

    That said, if you speak to a good reseller, tell them what you have and what you want to have they'll usually be able to tell you exactly what you need and the cheapest way to get it. And if they can't, you probably should try a better reseller.

  • Dr Herbie

    Thanks for the help, everyone.

    We're getting quotes for Retail TFS + 3 CALs to compare against quotes for VS2010 + MSDN for everyone (suspect that the latter will be the most expensive).

    Herbie

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