Coffeehouse Thread

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Surface in Japan

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  • Sven Groot

    I had an interesting experience today. My parents are currently visiting Japan, and we walked into a Yodobashi Camera (huge electronics store) looking for some headphones. I noticed they had Surface RTs on display (I didn't actually know they were sold in Japan yet).

    So I show it off to my mom, who is not the most technology literate person world but does have a Windows 8 laptop for work, an Android phone, and also recently bought an iPad. I showed the touch gestures and some of the metro apps (I had to explain how to close metro apps; despite having guessed alt-f4 would work, apparently they couldn't get that to work on her laptop which as far as I can tell from the way they explained it has something to do with the "make it more like Win7" thing (don't know which one exactly) my dad installed on it for her).

    I showed how you have the full Office and told about how an MS employee who sat next to me on the flight from Seattle to Japan (after my job interviews) used his Surface to make (from scratch) the presentation he was going to give in Japan (with the battery lasting the entire 10 hour flight). I showed her the kickstand and the touch and type covers and how they magnetically attach.

    I also told her plain and simple that this version of Windows couldn't run regular applications besides Office. I let her feel how heavy the Surface RT is compared to the iPad. I let her try the touch cover to show how awkward it is to use if you're not used to it. I showed her the price tag.

    Yet despite clearly explaining the major disadvantages, her reaction still was that she should've waited before buying an iPad. She clearly seemed impressed by it. Big Smile

    I must say I was also impressed at how prominently these things were displayed. Before this, Windows 8/RT tablets were limited to two units hidden in between all the Android tablets on the fifth floor. This was front and center, on the first floor near one of the entrances, with big signs advertising it and plenty of sales people lounging around (although that's kind of par for the course in Japanese stores that always seem to have five staff members per customer).

  • spivonious

    , Sven Groot wrote

    Yet despite clearly explaining the major disadvantages, her reaction still was that she should've waited before buying an iPad. She clearly seemed impressed by it. Big Smile

    My wife had the same reaction (although she didn't already have an iPad) when we went shopping for her RT tablet. I really hope MS doesn't kill the RT branch. Over the last 4-5 months, her only real complaint is that the email client doesn't do POP3.

  • Jim Young

    @Sven Groot:  Clamp a keyboard to the latest iPad and then tell me which is heavier Big Smile

  • Bas

    @spivonious: wasn't that fixed with an update months ago?

  • Jim Young

    , Bas wrote

    @spivonious: wasn't that fixed with an update months ago?

    Nope. IMAP and EAS only.

  • PeterF
  • davewill

    @PeterF: For inbound email it definitely could work.  For outbound it matters that the sending mail server's IP address is the proper IP address(es) for the sender's email domain.  i.e. an email from dave@example.com should show in the headers that it originated from example's email server; otherwise, it will get rated negatively as spam.  The article didn't go into detail about the outbound side.

  • spivonious

    , Bas wrote

    @spivonious: wasn't that fixed with an update months ago?

    They added the option to the dropdown, but if you choose it, it says it's not supported. Really frustrating, as I'd guess that 90% of personal email services still operate POP3 only.

  • PopeDai

    , spivonious wrote

    *snip*

    They added the option to the dropdown, but if you choose it, it says it's not supported. Really frustrating, as I'd guess that 90% of personal email services still operate POP3 only.

    POP3 needs to die - it's a relic from an older time.

    Sure, probably 90% of residential ISP-provided email addresses use POP3, but they're probably less than 0.05% of all email addresses in current use. Then there's also webhost-provided email, but many of them also offer IMAP or Hosted Exchange.

    I haven't sent an email to anyone with an ISP email address in years - not even to the venerable @aol.com domain. People expect to have their email in the cloud: for integration with their phones mostly and their ISPs cannot provide that service.

    This is probably why Outlook Express was unbundled from Internet Explorer and put on a separate release cycle.

  • ZippyV

    , PopeDai wrote

    *snip*

    POP3 needs to die - it's a relic from an older time.

    Sure, probably 90% of residential ISP-provided email addresses use POP3, but they're probably less than 0.05% of all email addresses in current use. Then there's also webhost-provided email, but many of them also offer IMAP or Hosted Exchange.

    I haven't sent an email to anyone with an ISP email address in years - not even to the venerable @aol.com domain. People expect to have their email in the cloud: for integration with their phones mostly and their ISPs cannot provide that service.

    This is probably why Outlook Express was unbundled from Internet Explorer and put on a separate release cycle.

    I asked my ISP if they were planning to support IMAP. Their answers was: No. As long as I don't have POP3 support on Windows RT I won't buy it.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , PopeDai wrote

    *snip*

    POP3 needs to die - it's a relic from an older time.

    And Microsoft is doing everything it can to kill it. Nice.

    Glad they had a change of heart on supporting flash in Windows 8 Store App Internet Explorer.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • Jim Young

    , spivonious wrote

    *snip*

    They added the option to the dropdown, but if you choose it, it says it's not supported. Really frustrating, as I'd guess that 90% of personal email services still operate POP3 only.

    Actually, the latest Windows 8 update removes POP3 as a choice.

  • figuerres

    , PopeDai wrote

    *snip*

    POP3 needs to die - it's a relic from an older time.

    Sure, probably 90% of residential ISP-provided email addresses use POP3, but they're probably less than 0.05% of all email addresses in current use. Then there's also webhost-provided email, but many of them also offer IMAP or Hosted Exchange.

    I haven't sent an email to anyone with an ISP email address in years - not even to the venerable @aol.com domain. People expect to have their email in the cloud: for integration with their phones mostly and their ISPs cannot provide that service.

    This is probably why Outlook Express was unbundled from Internet Explorer and put on a separate release cycle.

    funny comment.....

    Pope: back when the whole spam / email stuff was driving isp's nuts in the late 90's I was for a while a part of the IETF "Anti Spam Research Group"  when I brought up the idea that SMTP and POP3 had issues with spoofing the source of an email by doing stuff to the "envelope" of the message and suggested that  they look at a possible replacement of SMTP with a new version that would allow better rules on what was valid and what could be rejected they were not interested.

    the group voice was about like this:  there are too many independent  installations that depend on smtp / pop3 and the cost in making any change that requires they install new software is out of the question.

    so they stuck with hacking in patches to a system that has a basic flaw of trusting the sender to send a non forged message.

    the bottom line:  smtp and pop3 are here to stay for a very very long time....

    in case you want to know:  - make email messages xml documents was part of what I recommended they do.  not all of my idea but that was one of the key parts of it.

     

  • Blue Ink

    @figuerres: that's unfortunately the way things are. And we are just digging ourselves in a deeper hole by using (and abusing) old protocols in all sort of devices.

    Mitigation is all we can hope for at the moment; for instance, I wonder if it wouldn't be a good thing to allow SMTP servers to reject messages unless they originate directly from one of the IP addresses of the sender's domain (something that is specifically forbidden in the current RFC). That alone would make the whole header spoofing business irrelevant and it would improve the effectiveness of blacklisting.

     

  • DCMonkey

    , Blue Ink wrote

    @figuerres: that's unfortunately the way things are. And we are just digging ourselves in a deeper hole by using (and abusing) old protocols in all sort of devices.

    Mitigation is all we can hope for at the moment; for instance, I wonder if it wouldn't be a good thing to allow SMTP servers to reject messages unless they originate directly from one of the IP addresses of the sender's domain (something that is specifically forbidden in the current RFC). That alone would make the whole header spoofing business irrelevant and it would improve the effectiveness of blacklisting.

     

    It's called SenderID

     

  • figuerres

    , Blue Ink wrote

    @figuerres: that's unfortunately the way things are. And we are just digging ourselves in a deeper hole by using (and abusing) old protocols in all sort of devices.

    Mitigation is all we can hope for at the moment; for instance, I wonder if it wouldn't be a good thing to allow SMTP servers to reject messages unless they originate directly from one of the IP addresses of the sender's domain (something that is specifically forbidden in the current RFC). That alone would make the whole header spoofing business irrelevant and it would improve the effectiveness of blacklisting.

     

    as DC said there is sender id.  

      There is more that can be said but I do not want to hijack this thread.  if we want to go into spam and smtp issues start a new thread and I can say a whole lot about what's wrong and how it can be fixed  if anyone wants to have that talk.

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