Coffeehouse Thread

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Telerik is developing an HTML5 framwork

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  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    (Thanks Ian2 for the find)

    Post here, and a clarification by Telerik's boss.

    Yes, that great Silverlight shop is insuring itself with a small side project Smiley 

    Two thoughts:

    1) Yeah, like to world really needs another HTML/JS framework (and with a restrictive license, no less).

    2) If I was a Silverlight developer, I'd start worrying right about .... now

  • User profile image
    Ian2

    @fanbaby:Suspect that Silverlight developers have been 'worried' for some time now.  Most of the devs I have spoken to echo my own feelings and don't want to go 'back to the future' (thanks very much) but will see what MS lets out of the bag at BUILD before making any final decisions.

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    Ian2, the sad thing, from your POV, is that MS can change everything in one swoop: Declare .NET totaly open, patents and all, and try to get other players to at least give .NET another look. This is so sad to see, I feel for you.

    Microsoft, the last great company of the pre open-source era. I suspect we are going to see more of this tragedy, for example DirectX vs OpenGL.

  • User profile image
    Ian2

    @fanbaby:Don't see it as a tragedy, the reasons for the change look commercially sound and in any event MS has a pretty good record in looking after its' developers. 

    In the future we will probably look back on this as a hiccup.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    ,fanbaby wrote

    Microsoft, the last great company of the pre open-source era. I suspect we are going to see more of this tragedy, for example DirectX vs OpenGL.

    Define "open-source era". Open-source has been around for ages, decades in fact when you look at BSD 1989 re-licensing, and Linux's in the first few years of its life (at least 15 years ago). Companies that were based around the concept of supporting open-source are just as old, such as Red Hat.

    I think you're just referring to the recent spate of Google's "give it away for free" strategy, and I think that would happen regardless of license because Microsoft did the same thing in the mid-1990s.

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    ,W3bbo wrote

    *snip*

    Define "open-source era". Open-source has been around for ages, decades in fact when you look at BSD 1989 re-licensing, and Linux's in the first few years of its life (at least 15 years ago). Companies that were based around the concept of supporting open-source are just as old, such as Red Hat.

    I think you're just referring to the recent spate of Google's "give it away for free" strategy, and I think that would happen regardless of license because Microsoft did the same thing in the mid-1990s.

    OK, the open-source era is the era of, first and formost for me, wikipedia. Then it's the era of free and open-source OS's, framworks, DBMSs, IDEs, browsers. Closely connected it's the era of standards (yes, i know the lightbulb thread was standardaized in 1900 Smiley). I know all about UNIX and the magic of Bell Labs, and the stories of RMS sleeping in MIT's lab.  But only in recent years things accelerated to an unheard-of pace.

    For me, as someone who bagged a friend for a copy of a C compiler, we live in Paradise.

    Even though Google is my idol now, and is the new Bell Labs, this has nothing to do with Google or what it's giving for free. Look at 99% of all startups, and what they are using and talking about.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    ,fanbaby wrote

    Even though Google is my idol now, and is the new Bell Labs, this has nothing to do with Google or what it's giving for free.

    [quote]Look at 99% of all startups, and what they are using and talking about.

    The technology choices of startups are the result of marketing hype and pragmatism. VC funders hear all about how "web 2.0" is the future and associate good things with associated keywords like "NoSQL", "tags" and "the cloud" - and it so happens that the most affordable implementations of those technology keywords happen to FOSS implementations running on a FOSS stack. When your annual revenue is minimal you're under pressure to save money in every way, and that includes not shelling out thousands of dollars Microsoft (or Sun/Oracle, or Novell) software licenses.

    As for Google, they are a source of innovation, but they are serving their own interests more than anything else, and they only open-source things when it suits them (Android, to under-cut Microsoft; Distributed data processing because of external experience, and others besides), anything that's actually critical to their business (bigtable and their ranking algorithm) they keep under tigher lock-and-key than the Colonel's recipe for fried chicken. I would argue AT&T/Bell Labs' work was more influential than Google's because they spun-off successful research, whereas Google keeps it inside.

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    ,W3bbo wrote

    *snip*

    The technology choices of startups are the result of marketing hype and pragmatism. VC funders hear all about how "web 2.0" is the future and associate good things with associated keywords like "NoSQL", "tags" and "the cloud" - and it so happens that the most affordable implementations of those technology keywords happen to FOSS implementations running on a FOSS stack. When your annual revenue is minimal you're under pressure to save money in every way, and that includes not shelling out thousands of dollars Microsoft (or Sun/Oracle, or Novell) software licenses.

    As for Google, they are a source of innovation, but they are serving their own interests more than anything else, and they only open-source things when it suits them (Android, to under-cut Microsoft; Distributed data processing because of external experience, and others besides), anything that's actually critical to their business (bigtable and their ranking algorithm). I would argue AT&T/Bell Labs' work was more influential than Google's because they spun-off successful research, whereas Google keeps it inside.

    And I thought they bought/created Android because of their fear of some non-standard technology to take over (Silverlight, iPhone native, Flash etc.). Google (currently) wants the web to remain free/non-proprietary. The more people on the internet, using open clients, the better it is for Google. Currently that suits me greatly.

  • User profile image
    Harlequin

    Well if you remember right Silverlight 5 was announced at MIX 11. Do we know what stage it's in? Beta 1, Beta 2, etc...

  • User profile image
    Harlequin

    Google (currently) wants the web to remain free/non-proprietary. The more people on the internet, using open clients, the better it is for Google. Currently that suits me greatly.

    @fanbaby: Which is why that last cool video demo of theirs last month ran in Chrome only?

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    @Harlequin: Which demo was that? 

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    ,Harlequin wrote

    *snip*@fanbaby: Which is why that last cool video demo of theirs last month ran in Chrome only?

    And why they're adding a new 'native code' replacement for Javascript that also only works in Chrome and is entirely non-standardised.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    @AndyC:

    It's open source though.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    @Harlequin:

    Completely unrelated, but I noticed your company is now hiring Ruby developers and "providing developers with the latest Macs". Strategy shift?

  • User profile image
    IsThisReally​Beer

    @Bass:

    Completely unrelated, but I noticed your company is now hiring Ruby developers and "providing developers with the latest Macs". Strategy shift?

    Amazon is trying to get EVERYBODY in the start-up world on Heroku by making VCs believe that Rails is the only platform worth using.

    They don't want "Ruby" developers they want kids that grew up using the Rails framework because it was "super cool".

    It has nothing to do with strategy and everything to do with buzz words and follow the leader. They are nodes on Twitter's scene tree. VCs are not developers and they only can absorb a term here or there and Rails has been shoved down their throats for the past couple years big time.

    BTW, Heroku is such an awfully bad rip off. You can set up Rails with nginx on AWS directly and save hundreds of dollars a month in fees. A typical nginx setup on AWS with upstream backends for load balancing takes about 10 minutes with AMIs from the community. Most of it is just opening ports on the firewalls of the slave servers.

    But the VC backed companies will all say, NO, we MUST use Heroku (because our friends work there, but we won't mention that) because it's such a freedom not to have to manage nginx yourself.

    We've been running nginx with upstreams for a long time now and if you set the weights properly and have sticky sessions there's literally no maintenance.

    I'd like to add that kids like Ruby because of it's gem references.

    If somebody named a programming language "Gold Coin" or some super mario reference, I'm sure it would eclipse Ruby in no time no matter how bad it is. Maybe they could rename Javascript "Gold Coin" and have all the libraries named after levels in the latest Super Mario game for the Windows 8 release.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    telerik is big in the .NET world, but they will be terribly late to this HTML5 game.

    Especially when there are well funded and established HTML5-focused solution vendors like Sencha around already.

    They seem to have a lot of HTML widget stuff already with their ASP.NET MVC package, so that's probably why they are going into this. It doesn't make much sense to tie all your code to MVC when it's all written in HTML and JavaScript.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    @IsThisReallyBeer:

    I think Heroku makes a lot of sense for small companies who can't find or retain sysadmin/clustering expertise. A few hundred dollars a month is a fraction of the cost of a single sysadmin.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    ,Bass wrote

    @AndyC:

    It's open source though.

    Doesn't prevent it from being a proprietary technology though, it's no better than Silverlight or Flash.

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