Coffeehouse Thread

18 posts

The open-source troll wants to say something...

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  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    Hi all,

    For me, it was quite a good day, since the things i feared the most didn't materialize. Nothing major was open-sourced. In fact 'open-source' wasn't even mentioned on the keynote. Wheew. I was really scared that something (like .net) would somehow be opened. That surly happned Smiley. What was mentioned, a lot, was HTML5, as if it makes Windows somehow more standard or open. Yeah sure.

    Microsoft slowly but surly keeps on sailing in the same direction it started in the '90.  Destination: irrelevancy, ETA: sooner and sooner with all the disruptions going on

    I'm wondering if back around 2007, when Microsoft was introducing Silverlight, anyone in the audiance raised their hand and asked: "Hey, is this thing open? What standards it supports?" Or everyone just bought into what the evangelists were saying: Short-sell Adobe, they're toast. We are going to kill them before breakfast.

    I am more and more inclined to think that the misery that Microsoft developers are in (you are free to dispute this, of course), is because of 'evangelists'.

    On the other hand i might be underestimating Microsoft (as I underestimated Intel around 2004 when for a brief magical moment AMD held the crown)

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    HTML5 is open standard, but, there is no source code. Not sure how open is .NET as open standard, but, there are 3rd party .NET runtime out there.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    cbae

    If Microsoft does this right, they've pretty much just killed the browser as the de facto means for rendering web-based applications. The browser is now Notepad to the Windows 8 application stack's Word. The browser will still serve its purpose as a "utility viewer" for the web, but real applications delivered over the web will no longer have to be through the browser. Windows 8 OS itself does this now. It's like Chrome OS on steroids.

    To the user, what difference does this make in terms of convenience? You search for a website. You click a link. The browser downloads literally thousands of files that get cached locally, and these files render in the browser's window frame.

    In Windows 8, you search for apps in the store. You click a link. The application downloads locally, and Windows runs the app.

    The irrelevancy of the browser was already fast approaching because of the advent of web services. IMHO, Windows 8 will accelerate this further.

  • User profile image
    aL_

    @fanbaby:

    sure thing boss.. for like the 15th year in a row microsoft is well on their way to becoming irrelevant, presumably to be replaced by macs and various linux dists.

    as cbase said, what is going to become  less relevant is the browser window. not the browser engine per se, but the browser as a discreet application that you run.

    for years we've been seeing apps take the place as the premium way to deliver content on phones and tablets, and win8/chomeOS will push that trend even further, and will both include some os specific libraries that will break cross platform. but that doesnt matter, if there is money to be made, people will rewrite their apps

     

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    ,aL_ wrote

    as cbase said, what is going to become  less relevant is the browser window. not the browser engine per se, but the browser as a discreet application that you run.

    To some extent one implies the other. If I can access all my online services through native Windows 8 applications, why would I need a seperate browser application and, by extension, what use is any other rendering engine?

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,AndyC wrote

    *snip*

    To some extent one implies the other. If I can access all my online services through native Windows 8 applications, why would I need a seperate browser application and, by extension, what use is any other rendering engine?

    Well, the HTML rendering engine will still exist in some form to allow for Windows 8 applications to be designed with HTML. I think that's all that he meant.

  • User profile image
    aL_

    @AndyC:

    true,

    really apps are the new web pages, except with completly opaque implentation details[could be xaml or html on webkit, moz or ie] 

    all they do is communication over sockets in a standardized way (like ws or http) kinda beautiful if you think about it Smiley

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    @cbae:I was thinking more of Webkit and Gecko. If the web browser becomes irrelevant, then it single handedly deals a killer blow to those engines, at least as far as Windows goes.

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    ,aL_ wrote

    @fanbaby:

    ...

    as cbase said, what is going to become  less relevant is the browser window. not the browser engine per se, but the browser as a discreet application that you run.

    ...

     

    Is this your theory or wishful thinking? I'm seriously asking this.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,fanbaby wrote

    For me, it was quite a good day, since the things i feared the most didn't materialize. Nothing major was open-sourced. In fact 'open-source' wasn't even mentioned on the keynote. Wheew. I was really scared that something (like .net) would somehow be opened.

    That right there tells me that you don't really give a rat's a$$ about open source. You just want Microsoft to fail, and you somehow think that Microsoft will do so as long as they don't embrace open source (how misguided that notion might be). 

    Microsoft slowly but surly keeps on sailing in the same direction it started in the '90.  Destination: irrelevancy, ETA: sooner and sooner with all the disruptions going on

    Is that your theory or just wishful thinking?

  • User profile image
    aL_

    ,fanbaby wrote

    *snip*

    Is this your theory or wishful thinking? I'm seriously asking this.

    its all ready happening.. webapps are already trying to break out of the browser chrome. this is something google is pushing as hard as anyone..

    again, im not saying the web technologies will become irrelevant, people have massive investments in those, im just saying the actual browser window wont be [and isnt] the only viewport to the internet

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    ,cbae wrote

    That right there tells me that you don't really give a rat's a$$ about open source. You just want Microsoft to fail, and you somehow think that Microsoft will do so as long as they don't embrace open source (how misguided that notion might be). 

     

    My thinking was more along the lines: OMG, Microsoft is opensourcing DOTNET, oh no, all those Silverlight idiots who didn't give a diddly squat about how delicate the web is in regard to standards and patents, all those idiots will be saved by the bell. Those same idiots who FUD HTML5 (it will be done in 2022, and i'd rather cut my arm then code in that,) thinking it will revive SL. I rather enjoy seeing them being tormented still. Not sure how many left, certainly not many.

    AND YES, I CERTAINLY THINK MS WILL (HAS?) FAIL UNLESS IT EMBRACES OPEN SOURCE, AND CHANGE ITS ACTIONS W.R.T. PATENTS.

    I'm talking here, of course, about SL for the web. I don't care about SL for windows or SL for WP7.

    My question for you is do you want Microsoft to embrace opensource and have a no patent stance? How do you feel about the web's success? (oh right, you think the browser will disappear), how do you feel that the world is going multi-platform?
  • User profile image
    AndyC

    ,fanbaby wrote

    *snip*

    My question for you is do you want Microsoft to embrace opensource and have a no patent stance? How do you feel about the web's success? (oh right, you think the browser will disappear), how do you feel that the world is going multi-platform?

    If everything was a webpage, what would be the point of Open Source?

  • User profile image
    Diestl

    ,cbae wrote

    If Microsoft does this right, they've pretty much just killed the browser as the de facto means for rendering web-based applications. 

    The irrelevancy of the browser was already fast approaching because of the advent of web services. IMHO, Windows 8 will accelerate this further.

     

    I think you have overdosed on the Cool-Aid.  The browser will be around many decades to come, in fact the browser will become the OS.  Most people will upgrade to 8 and turn off the Metro crap and download Google Chrome.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Diestl wrote

    *snip*

     

    I think you have overdosed on the Cool-Aid.  The browser will be around many decades to come, in fact the browser will become the OS.  Most people will upgrade to 8 and turn off the Metro crap and download Google Chrome.

    Yes, the browser will exist for decades just like Notepad still exists. It will still serve a purpose, but it won't be as an OS. Methinks you've drunk the Google Kool-Aid.

  • User profile image
    Diestl

    ,cbae wrote

    *snip*

    Yes, the browser will exist for decades just like Notepad still exists. It will still serve a purpose, but it won't be as an OS. Methinks you've drunk the Google Kool-Aid.

    But notepad fulfills a specific job, its not as if notepad was used for years for all word processing then word came along and no one used it.  

    This is all the same hype as Silverlight WPF, was meant to mean end of the browser etc.... the only think I can see it being the end of is MS OS market share. 

  • User profile image
    cbae

    ,Diestl wrote

    *snip*

    But notepad fulfills a specific job, its not as if notepad was used for years for all word processing then word came along and no one used it.  

    This is all the same hype as Silverlight WPF, was meant to mean end of the browser etc.... the only think I can see it being the end of is MS OS market share. 

    The specific job of a browser will be to go look at a web site and view ads served up by Google if you're into that sort of thing.

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    ,Diestl wrote

    *snip*

     The browser will be around many decades to come, in fact the browser will become the OS.

    Yeah, right.....   and so the "Browser" today an "application" that runs with the help of an "Operating system" will be extended to the point of taking over all of the needs of running a system?

    or are you saying that we will not have a computer that runs anything but web pages ? sure i can see folks having a super thin pad/tablet/slate thing that surfs the web but I think we will still have a need for a more general use machine that runs more than one app and can be updated / modifed in other ways.

    in any case where we reduce to one super browser app / OS then we would also have to pick from mutliple builds to support different hardware or we all run the same hardware ...

    Monocultures tend to be a bad idea.

    people want choices....

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