Coffeehouse Thread

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The strike begins tomorrow

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  • User profile image
    Cream​Filling512

    I thought the epistemology stuff in objectivism was pretty good.

  • User profile image
    dahat

    , ScanIAm wrote

    Kinda it is.  I haven't read AS,

    Thank you for your honesty

    but I did read fountainhead and Rand's writing style was not to my liking.

    I'll tell you a little secret... while I generally like Ayn Rand's philosophy... I thought Fountainhead did a horrible job of presetting it (think Simillaron vs Lord of the Rings). I walked away from it hating everyone within with the exception of Lucius Heyer... and that just probably just because he died too early in the book for him to do anything to turn me against him.

    It is your right to judge her entire works because of one book you didn't enjoy... though it is interesting how much you are doing so... rather than simply ignoring it.

    I've got a good enough grasp of the storyline that I'm not coming from the point of view of a complet idiot on this.

    I'm waiting to see/hear evidence of that... in fact there is a key part of it you keep missing... and until I hear it will continue to conclude you do not have a firm grasp of what you speak.

    Atlas Shrugged was and is propaganda used by the super-haves to fool the rest of us into thinking that THE PRODUCERS(tm) (i.e. the wealthy and connected) are constantly limited by the rules and norms of society.  The rest of the unwashed masses should be happy to be in their company and eat the crumbs that fall off their table.  And further, any expectation of more results in faux accusations of class warfare.   Sound familiar?

    Just because that is how you see some use it... that does not mean that that is how is it was intended, or how most read/understand it. Given your limited understanding of it I see little purpose in continuing this discussion with you so long as you do not seek to understand it. I could attempt to educate you on the subject, though you've demonstrated here (and elsewhere) repeatedly that your mind is already made up.

    I am simply calling attention to a book which has meant a great deal to me in my life, as well as many others, and the fact that it will very soon be an honest to goodness movie on the silverscreen, something it's fans have been eager for for quite some time, though may not have known about due to the limited marketing that has been done.

    You will note that unlike some others here, I have purposely avoided drawing specific connections between this book and the world today, demonstrating the illogic of the logic of some here which would allow... well the sorts of things I won't even mention, referenced any kind of sexual positions or slurs, or engage in the kind of wide spread attacks on other people who may not agree with me.

    Again, I am talking about a movie & a book which I think has great relivance to the world we live in today. What relivance that is you may assume for yourself, only I would ask that you make that assumption based on actual information and not perceptions from a blurb or two you've read on the internet.

    To quote a line from later in the book which I think ends this post well in a way ties in to CreamFilling's comment: 

    "We never make assertions, Miss Taggart," said Hugh Akston. "That is the moral crime peculiar to our enemies. We do not tell-we show. We do not claim-we prove. It is not your obedience that we seek to win, but your rational conviction. You have seen all the elements of our secret. The conclusion is now yours to draw-we can help you to name it, but not to accept it-the sight, the knowledge and the acceptance must be yours."
  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    When I read the book, I imagined it taking place in a steam-punkish world. I don't get any of that feeling, watching the movie trailers. The lighting seems a little off too. More scenes should be shot at night or in the rain. There looks like too much sun light for this wretched world. 

    If there was any movie in which I would copy the feel, it would be Sin City; you could really feel the cold, wet, and darkness, in that film.

    There are a couple of epic speeches in the book, the money speech and John's radio speech. I'm not sure how they could fit either into the movie, or how the movie could exist without them.

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    dahat

    , JoshRoss wrote

    When I read the book, I imagined it taking place in a steam-punkish world. I don't get any of that feeling, watching the movie trailers. The lighting seems a little off too. More scenes should be shot at night or in the rain. There looks like too much sun light for this wretched world.

    I always got the impression that it was in a 30’s or 40’s time when neither WWII nor the depression happened. But I agree about the light... much more of a feeling of dinginess. Hell, form the looks of the offices of the John Galt Line look fairly pretty. Tomorrow we'll know just how well they did (granted I've a whole list of concerns, I am doing my best to keep an open mind until I see the full product).

    There are a couple of epic speeches in the book, the money speech and John's radio speech. I'm not sure how they could fit either into the movie, or how the movie could exist without them.

    Rand did some screen writing in her day as well... and even spent a bit of time trying to come up with a screenplay for Atlas Shrugged.. so I think it’s reasonable to assume that even she knew that things had to be cut back... and let’s admit it, the radio speech is a bit long (~3 hours in the book). Heck knows large portions can, will and must be cut out or back to make it something people will sit through... which is tricky with the book as I understand the unabridged reading is ~60 hours long.

  • User profile image
    Blue Ink

    I remember liking the book immensely when I first read it. Tried to read it again several years later and couldn't finish it... it tasted distant and "old"; kind of what a movie about the aftermath of a nuclear war tastes nowadays. Or maybe it was just me growing older... might be an interesting experiment to read it once more and see how I react to it now.

    Still, I think I'll skip the movie; partly because it's easy to foresee the kind of controversy that will come out of it, but mainly because I cannot figure out how they could make a decent movie without pulling another "Starship Troopers".

    Books are books, and time spent with them is never wasted, even - and especially - when you think you may disagree with the author. Sticking to the ones that just resonate what ideas we already have is a lot like fanboyism in CS... it's the challenge that makes ideas grow stronger, or spawn new ones; if it weren't for that, we may well be here praising the benefits of the umpteenth version of COBOL.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    Man, that seriously looks like a B-movie.

  • User profile image
    bryanedds

    It's interesting that you never see an honest, intellectual objection to libertarianism, but rather either a mindless knee jerk reaction or vitriolic mud-slinging.

    There are conclusions that can be drawn from this.

    An individualist is he who is saving himself from all those who are saving the world.
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  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    , bryanedds wrote

    It's interesting that you never see an honest, intellectual objection to libertarianism, but rather either a mindless knee jerk reaction or vitriolic mud-slinging.

    There are conclusions that can be drawn from this.

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaand what exactly is intellectual or un-vitriolic about calling your detractors 'mindless'? 

    Libertarianism covers a pretty wide swath of ideas, so you'll have to be more specific if you want some intellectually stimulating debate. 

    Here's a starter: "Libertarian ideals against government intervention would have us dismantle the FDA.  This is only a good idea if you are pro-salmonella."

  • User profile image
    cbae

    , bryanedds wrote

    It's interesting that you never see an honest, intellectual objection to libertarianism, but rather either a mindless knee jerk reaction or vitriolic mud-slinging.

    There are conclusions that can be drawn from this.

    The conclusion that one can draw is that everything is better in moderation. "Vitriolic mud-slinging" is usually reserved for the extremists.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    I totally believe that everyone is born equal and has a fair shot at success. I mean even my son with his Asperger's is just such a faker! Only lazy people want hand outs and as the film espouses are truly the leaches on everyone else's success. If it were up to me I'd demean the poor at ever chance I get, cut off every opportunity to get an education, get well from illness (or better yet cut off any means of health & wellness -- hey why not death panels?!?!?) , break any means that they may collectively bargan for a better workplace and wages, and make them sound like the lazy bunch they really are. After all there is only so much room at the top and the more people we clear out at the bottom the better. You know if we don't someone else will...

    BTW, I just finished watching a 24 hour stint of Fox News and listening to Rush Limbaugh. Rush is truely the second coming.

    <REALITY>Now if there were only a little island where we could park the ignorant who believe the way I just spoke America would be such a better place. The world is truely what we make of it.</REALITY>

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    spivonious

    , ScanIAm wrote

    *snip*

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaand what exactly is intellectual or un-vitriolic about calling your detractors 'mindless'? 

    Libertarianism covers a pretty wide swath of ideas, so you'll have to be more specific if you want some intellectually stimulating debate. 

    Here's a starter: "Libertarian ideals against government intervention would have us dismantle the FDA.  This is only a good idea if you are pro-salmonella."

    The FDA's mission is a good one, but its implementation is horrible. Tons of unnecessary bureaucracy.

    I consider myself liberatarian, but I do make concessions for some things like the FDA, EPA, and FTC. Without those, I don't think the free market would be enough to control the truly selfish, evil capitalists out there who don't care how many die as long as they make a buck.

    In theory, the free market would punish companies who put out unsafe food and drugs. No one would buy food from a company who was responsible for making an entire region sick from tainted meat.

    I do believe that we'd be better off with a smaller federal government and more power in the states. Back to a union of sovereign states rather than a large nation. I'd gladly pay more tax to Pennsylvania if it meant less tax to Washington D.C..

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    I totally believe that everyone is born equal and has a fair shot at success. I mean even my son with his Asperger's is just such a faker! Only lazy people want hand outs and as the film espouses are truly the leaches on everyone else's success. If it were up to me I'd demean the poor at ever chance I get, cut off every opportunity to get an education, get well from illness (or better yet cut off any means of health & wellness -- hey why not death panels?!?!?) , break any means that they may collectively bargan for a better workplace and wages, and make them sound like the lazy bunch they really are. After all there is only so much room at the top and the more people we clear out at the bottom the better. You know if we don't someone else will...

    BTW, I just finished watching a 24 hour stint of Fox News and listening to Rush Limbaugh. Rush is truely the second coming.

    <REALITY>Now if there were only a little island where we could park the ignorant who believe the way I just spoke America would be such a better place. The world is truely what we make of it.</REALITY>

    I'm all for charity. Let people give to the causes they want to support. Just don't force it through taxation and government programs.

    Education and healthcare are expensive because the student/patient is not the one paying for them. Back when patients paid for office visits out-of-pocket, the costs were much lower, because doctors wanted more patients to come in. College used to be very affordable until the majority of students were on financial aid. There is a huge sense of entitlement these days where people get upset if they can't stay on unemployment for 99 weeks. That's almost two full years. If you can't find a job during that time, you're either not looking hard enough or not willing to take a paycut. Labor unions are pointless. Laws exist that protect worker's rights. Maximum hours, child labor, minimum wage, etc. Those are what unions were formed to get, not to ensure employment and get cushier benefits. Teachers are upset that they won't get as big of a pension? When was the last time you saw a private-sector job offering a pension? Oh no, the workers will have to pay some of their salary towards health insurance? Join the rest of the workforce.

    I'm not looking down on the poor, I'm just saying that for the majority (at least in my experience), they rely on government assistance way too much, and are all too quick to blame "the man" for their lack of prosperity. The rest of us had to work to get that college degree, to get that well-paying job, to get that promotion, to buy the nice house. It's not like the non-poor are all living off trust funds.

    Everyone has an equal opportunity to live a better life. Some take it, and some sit around and complain.

    </rant>

  • User profile image
    dahat

    @Blue Ink:Well said, though I must ask... at what age did you first read it? At what age did you re-read it? How old are you now?

    It must be said though... while the book->movie conversion of Starship Troopers was bad... ever catch the two straight to DVD sequels? I question at times if even SyFy would air them.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    , spivonious wrote

    In theory, the free market would punish companies who put out unsafe food and drugs. No one would buy food from a company who was responsible for making an entire region sick from tainted meat.

    But in reality, there would end up being 1 or 2 companies who own the entire food industry, and BOTH would be responsible for making an entire region sick from tainted meat. Your only decision would be to go with the company that does it least often. We already have this dynamic happening in the telecomm industry, and that's WITH some government oversight. Imagine what it would be like with even more limited government.

  • User profile image
    Lizard​Rumsfeld

    Welp, the free market is never wrong!

     

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  • User profile image
    cbae

    , spivonious wrote

    I do believe that we'd be better off with a smaller federal government and more power in the states. Back to a union of sovereign states rather than a large nation. I'd gladly pay more tax to Pennsylvania if it meant less tax to Washington D.C..

    It's funny that you mention a willingness to pay state tax over federal tax and then complain about pensions in back to back posts. The federal government stopped offering its pension plan to new enrollees in favor of a 401K-like Thrift Savings Plan back in the late '80s. It's the state governments that still offer pension plans. You don't hear about the notorious "double dippers" working for the federal government. These are all state government employees.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    , dahat wrote

    It must be said though... while the book->movie conversion of Starship Troopers was bad... ever catch the two straight to DVD sequels? I question at times if even SyFy would air them.

    No instead they air quantum kitchen and shark versus octopus nonsense. SyFy is a lie damnit, they don't show much sci-fi any more.

    (And I've tried to read it twice. Each time I gave up laughing at the sheer absurdity of it, the utter selfishness of her heros and the awful awful writing. I'll stick to BioShock's treatment of Objectivisim *grin*)

  • User profile image
    cbae

    , NitzWalsh wrote

    Welp, the free market is never wrong!

     

    Generic Forum Image

    Damn, that's worse than the Tomatometer rating Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed received.

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