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This make me think that XAML might not be with us forever

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  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    , Bass wrote

    @JohnAskew:

    Saying XAML/SIlverlight is better than HTML is like saying Esperanto is better than English.

    "I'll take 'unqualified replies' for $100, Alex"

    Expressionless

  • User profile image
    JohnAskew

    , Bass wrote

    @JohnAskew:

    Saying XAML/SIlverlight is better than HTML is like saying Esperanto is better than English.

     

    "Bone"

    EDIT: That's the Esperanto word for "all right". Tongue Out

  • User profile image
    vesuvius

    , Bass wrote

    @JohnAskew:

    Saying XAML/SIlverlight is better than HTML is like saying Esperanto is better than English.

     

    You are not comparing like with like, but are comparing a bicycle with a car. Yes both are vehicles, and they have their place. XAML/Silverlight isn't just better, it is superior.

    I hope you weren't eating anything, as I probably induced uncontrollable choking.

  • User profile image
    Charles

    I don't see why this debate continues to rage on - it has no meaning in the context of reality... It's been made very clear - beginning at BUILD 2011 - that this is not about This vs That. You use what you know how to use, what you want to use, as it relates to HTML5 and Windows XAML for building Windows Store Apps.

    Please watch http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Bytes+by+MSDN/Bytes-by-MSDN-Windows-8-Design-Tools and start building apps in HTML or XAML, whichever you prefer!

    C

  • User profile image
    TexasToast

    Charles I think the problem is that alot of people cannot understand that there are choices.  They are used to a world where someone says use this and you will like it because it is the best.   So then arguments start up and there is always some under handed strategy of evil to end one technology over another.   Its like going to the dealer to buy a car.  Do you want stick or automatic?  And the customer then asks the sales guy which one is better?   The sales guy says if you know how to drive stick you might have more fun with the stick shift.   If you dont just stick to driving the automatic.  You pretty much end up getting to the same place.    I think this frame of mind will keep going. 

    Java versus .Net  ...  C# versus VB ...   C++ versus  C#  ...  Power PC big endian versus Intel little endian ...   AMD versus Intel    ARM versus both of them  ...    any more tech wars you can think of .

    Apple versus MS ..  Google versus MS .. Linux versus MS ...

    And all these debates talk about 1 winning and 1 losing when the truth is there is room for all of them.

  • User profile image
    Charles

    , TexasToast wrote

    And all these debates talk about 1 winning and 1 losing when the truth is there is room for all of them.

    You got it -> The happiness of AND.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , Charles wrote

    I don't see why this debate continues to rage on - it has no meaning in the context of reality... It's been made very clear - beginning at BUILD 2011 - that this is not about This vs That. You use what you know how to use, what you want to use, as it relates to HTML5 and Windows XAML for building Windows Store Apps.

    Please watch http://channel9.msdn.com/Blogs/Bytes+by+MSDN/Bytes-by-MSDN-Windows-8-Design-Tools and start building apps in HTML or XAML, whichever you prefer!

    C

    IMO, it continues on because there's a lack of trust ever since Microsoft curtailed work on WPF/SL. There have been several posts here (and tons elsewhere) where developers are looking for something concrete to hang their hat on. Unfortunately the days of a nice homogeneous environment provided by Microsoft are over and we just have to get used to the fact that we'll be writing apps on a variety of platforms with a variety of languages and APIs. It's browser compatibility 10x now that devices are in the mix and web apps are "all the rage" with HTML5 and all. The dominance of the PC is over and that's too bad. Web sites, mobile web apps, native mobile apps, native W8 apps, desktop apps, and on and on; it's a headache, costs more for everyone, etc. but it's the new reality that we live in -- and IMO thanks in large part to Microsoft's decisions these last 3 or 4 years.

  • User profile image
    TexasToast

    DeathByVisualStudio you need to get a life.   Microsoft is a big corporation and trust is something you should not apply to them or any other corporation.   The PC is not dead and I would argue that a phone, a tablet etc is a personal computer (PC) .   You might use it a bit differently or use it in different scenarios.   Its a good thing that PC's are in different form factors and yes we can own more than one.   As Charles said the key word is AND.   I am not going to do Solidworks on my phone, or develop apps on it but yes I use it for browsing, web etc.    So what.  Microsoft is trying to do is make tools for it that are an improvement.   Its not like they are made up of 3 people in a room and all of a sudden they say we now have to work on this and not that anymore.  

    Do you even look beyond your narrow view of all the stuff they do at Microsoft?  They have all kinds of platforms that are useful in a wide variety of end products.   I dont think any of it will go away if Microsoft sees there is a need and gets to generate monies from it.   Just because it is not getting attention right now does not mean it is dead.   One thing I have also learned is that if what you are replacing is not better than what you have it wont make it in the market no matter how much you hype it up. 

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    web apps are "all the rage" with HTML5 and all.

    Huh? have I slipped back in time to the mid 2000s again? Web apps were all the rage, those days are gone, have been ever since the introduction of apps on the iPhone/iPad.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , AndyC wrote

    *snip*

    Huh? have I slipped back in time to the mid 2000s again? Web apps were all the rage, those days are gone, have been ever since the introduction of apps on the iPhone/iPad.

    Seems like many native device apps (multiple platforms of course, yeah!)  have corresponding web sites many of which are moving towards HTML5.

    So for content providers (news, music, and other services) you end up having:

    • Principle web site/app (lowest common denominator) that's either very ajax-y or HTML5ish
    • Mobile web site/app (browser compat fun) OR
    • Native device apps (one for each platform)

    And if you're really lucky you have a legacy desktop app to continue to support to boot. Let's also not forget the glue that is web services, security implementation (preferably one that works singularly across your apps), and a database (cloud or otherwise).

    It would be great if Apple iEverything, Android, BB, et all would just disappear so we have a more homogenous environment to work against but Microsoft lost that battle long ago. There are plenty of miss-steps here:

    • Lack of development of IE
    • Lack of success with tablet OS (origami, Windows tablet extensions -- more could have been done earlier here rather than being fixated on the desktop UI)
    • Lack of development of WinMo (same issue as previous)
    • And finally the mocking of the initial iPhone and not responding as if it were a serious threat.

    Then throw on top of that pile the epic curtailment of WPF/SL with no story for LOB apps in W8 other that "re-imagine" them (oh and "skills transfer", yeah!). All-in-all it's a regular Greek tragedy.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , TexasToast wrote

    *snip*

    One thing I have also learned is that if what you are replacing is not better than what you have it wont make it in the market no matter how much you hype it up. 

    I hope Microsoft will learn that lesson some day.

  • User profile image
    TexasToast

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    I hope Microsoft will learn that lesson some day.

    ,

     

    They learn that lesson alot.    Usually someone else (a competitor) has to kick them a little.  It also takes them a bit longer now then when they were a bit smaller company.   I have to agree with others that WPF/SL was and still is a good technology especially for LOB apps.

  • User profile image
    Bass

    @vesuvius:

    On a purely technical level, I agree. I also think Esperanto is a far technically superior language than English, but that's not the language I wrote this post in. Familiarity and standards compliance are important factors in technology decisions.

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    , Bass wrote

    @vesuvius:

    On a purely technical level, I agree. I also think Esperanto is a far technically superior language than English, but that's not the language I wrote this post in. Familiarity and standards compliance are important factors in technology decisions.

    Wow! (this might be losely related Smiley)

    The movie i linked to in the original post had really made me think that Microsoft is getting its escape route ready. That's a pretty huge investment in open standards. I am seeing this as in insurance, or hedging bets.

     

  • User profile image
    Bass

    @fanbaby:

    I don't view their increasing adoption of web technology to be all that surprising given the circumstances. Web technology is the only universal and standard way develop client side applications for the multi-platform world that exists today. To not support it is quite limiting.

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    , Bass wrote

    @fanbaby:

    I don't view their increasing adoption of web technology to be all that surprising given the circumstances. Web technology is the only universal and standard way develop client side applications for the multi-platform world that exists today. To not support it is quite limiting.

    Really? How do I develop a client side app using "web technology" and deploy it on a Windows and a OS/X machine?

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , PaoloM wrote

    *snip*

    Really? How do I develop a client side app using "web technology" and deploy it on a Windows and a OS/X machine?

    Silly rabbit! You don't need to deploy a web app. You run it from the magical cloud via web browser.

    If you really want to go "rich client" you can build a thin native app that acts as a wrapper for a web control that hosts your web app.

    Isn't that what HTML5 is all about anyway? Wink

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    Er... no.

    HTML5 can be used to develop both web applications and client side applications. I was just asking how do you develop a client side application using "web technology" that is also deployable cross platform and makes use of the underlying OS functionality (OS/X keychain or Win8 contracts, for example)

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