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Why does this site not advertize that to develop for Win Phone 8 you must buy Windows 8????

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  • User profile image
    rittjc

    Is it not risky enough targeting the Windows 8 Phone that is not compatible with Windows 8 but to use the phone SDK 8 you have to have Windows 8 even though your development is all Microsoft can count on for Windows Phone 8 not to excel all other Windows phones in unmitigated disasters?

    Couldn't Microsoft have the decency to advertize they broke one off in us by pulling this stunt as a bad grace to those they need to sow good graces too? At least put it up before people like me buy Windows 8 Phones and find out that it is difficult to get from anyone other than A&T but it is the "Smart Phone" you cannot develop for and they need your development to save the marketing disasters already set"?

    At least say it up front. It is ok to screw over 30 year loyal Microsoft zealots but at least throw them a bone when you have another screwing so they don't snap!

    So this precedent says you must purchase upgrades on every OS from here on to develop upgrades on phones, that in the unlikely event you could ever sell any to justify your time (after all its never gonna be an Android or iPhone and have large customer base).

    This is how Microsoft envisions its revenue becoming? They will need to strong arm customers to use it until an alternative finally comes along?

    I don't get it. The level of foolishness by which decisions are being made now is as if Google or Apple has purchased enough of MS stock to plant saboteurs in management. How much longer will Microsoft be a viable company or has their end finally come? I cannot reconcile the absolute magnitude of their nascent insanity. It is mind boggling!

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    Whilst I agree with you in principle, Windows Phone isn't even the biggest offender in the market for this kind of behaviour.

    I still find it ridiculous that you need to buy a mac to develop for iPhone. That's clearly abusing their huge position in the smartphone market to sell macbooks.

    It'd be quite nice for Congress to come and stamp on the both of them. It's cynical and bad for consumers to engage in this kind of behaviour.

  • User profile image
    cbae

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    I still find it ridiculous that you need to buy a mac to develop for iPhone. That's clearly abusing their huge position in the smartphone market to sell macbooks.

    *snip*

    Heck, even if you program with C#/.NET using a Xamarin plugin for Visual Studio, you still have to use Mac to compile your app if you want target iOS.

  • User profile image
    PeterF

    You can still use your Windows Phone 8 physical device for debugging?

    The emulator is now running as HyperV VM which is much faster than the WP7 emulator but unfortunately uses functionality which is not present below Windows 8 or on older hardware... If you have a good business plan, you should be able to justify an aditional investment of coding tools?

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    @rittjc: This site isn't the Windows Phone Development site, but despite that it has been discussed here. It's also clearly labeled everywhere that it should be. I too find this requirement to be a pain, but Microsoft didn't do this to "screw over 30 year loyal Microsoft zealots". The reason this restriction exists is because they vastly improved the emulator, which requires the emulator to run in HyperV. So you aren't restricted to Win8... the emulator runs in all OSes from Win8 on (this includes Windows Server 2012, for instance).

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    @PeterF: Yep, but the SDK won't install on an older OS.

  • User profile image
    PeterF

    @wkempf ah, you're right... I edited my answer and added an extra alinea on dev expenses, but underestimated the vividness of the thread Wink

  • User profile image
    PeterF

    The remark of the real device is however still valid if your hardware is not sufficient for HyperV (after installing Windows 8 of course Wink)

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    The Windows 8 requirement is purely artificial. There is no technical reason you can't develop WP8 on Windows 7 other than MS crippled the installer to only accept Windows 8. Why do I say that? Well, let's see...

    One can argue the new emulator requires Windows 8, and I will agree. One can then argue that the WP8 SDK can't work if the emulator can't work. However you would be wrong, because when I was forced to upgrade to Windows 8 in order to develop for WP8, the installer told me my hardware doesn't support SLAT and hence the emulator won't work (I would still be able to use a physical device to debug with).

    So yea, there goes that argument out the window. Add to this the fact that there are hacks to the WP8 SDK installer that will bypass the artificial restriction resulting in a fully functional WP8 dev environment on Windows 7, sans emulator.

    Bottom line: It's just greed and the desire to force Metro onto everyone, no real technical reason.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    This site isn't really a central point for WP8 development. On the central pages the Getting Started page states it and the SDK Download page states it. Where else would you like it clearly stated?

  • User profile image
    kettch

    @blowdart: That's crazy talk. Who in their right mind ever looks at the system requirements section?

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , kettch wrote

    @blowdart: That's crazy talk. Who in their right mind ever looks at the system requirements section?

    I think the crazy talk started with Microsoft putting in these artificial requirements in the first place.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
    Last modified
  • User profile image
    Harlock123n​ew

    , wkempf wrote

    @rittjc: This site isn't the Windows Phone Development site, but despite that it has been discussed here. It's also clearly labeled everywhere that it should be. I too find this requirement to be a pain, but Microsoft didn't do this to "screw over 30 year loyal Microsoft zealots". The reason this restriction exists is because they vastly improved the emulator, which requires the emulator to run in HyperV. So you aren't restricted to Win8... the emulator runs in all OSes from Win8 on (this includes Windows Server 2012, for instance).

    It will install in a VM running Windows 8 and the tool stack (VS2012 and all the extras that are required, SDKs and what not). A simple configuration change allowed me to run the emulator in that VM just fine, and reasonably fast as well. Certainly faster than the emulator in WP7, even though the emulator for WP8 was itself running in an emulator...

  • User profile image
    bondsbw

    However you would be wrong, because when I was forced to upgrade to Windows 8 in order to develop for WP8, the installer told me my hardware doesn't support SLAT and hence the emulator won't work (I would still be able to use a physical device to debug with).

    This is like saying:

    My car requires unleaded gasoline, but when I filled up with unleaded, it still wouldn't start because I forgot to put oil in it.  Therefore my manufacturer lied about unleaded gasoline being a requirement, I can certainly use diesel.

    Your second argument is sound though.

  • User profile image
    BitFlipper

    , bondsbw wrote

    *snip*

    This is like saying:

    *snip*

    No its not like saying that at all. Your analogy misses the whole point that there is no technical limitation at all that you can't develop for WP8 on Windows 7. It is purely an artificial limitation meant to force people onto Windows 8.

    People mistakenly think (even in this thread) that the reason is because of the lack of emulator support on Windows 7, while I provided proof that the WP8 SDK functions perfectly fine while the installer acknowledges the emulator won't work on Windows 8 with hardware that doesn't support SLAT. How is that different from running it on Windows 7?

  • User profile image
    dahat

    , BitFlipper wrote

    *snip*

    People mistakenly think (even in this thread) that the reason is because of the lack of emulator support on Windows 7, while I provided proof that the WP8 SDK functions perfectly fine while the installer acknowledges the emulator won't work on Windows 8 with hardware that doesn't support SLAT. How is that different from running it on Windows 7?

    Provided proof? What proof?... you said that with some hacks the WP8 tools can be installed to WP7 and they run. I've seen no proof of that here. More so... even if they do run and support deploying to and debugging against a device... doesn't mean everything still works.

    For all you know, there are some features (other than the emulator) that require Windows 8. I don't know if they exist, I have just seen cased like that over the years, and when you say things like:

    Bottom line: It's just greed and the desire to force Metro onto everyone, no real technical reason.

    ... you sound more conspiratorial than factual.

    Knowing how Microsoft works... I'm more inclined to believe the requirement was technical than financial.

  • User profile image
    ScanIAm

    You could both be right.

    If the only reason for this limitation is that MSFT didn't want to spend untold millions on QA and testing, then it is, indeed, an issue of money.

    Could they have made it work in Win7? Yes.

    Should they have made it work in Win7? Arguable.

    Is it worth it given the limited population of developers? No.

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    I also wonder, factoring into a "is it worth it?" reason, that maybe the people who would develop for Windows 8 are also more likely to develop for WP8.

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