Coffeehouse Thread

51 posts

Why so much negativity?

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  • evildictait​or

    , BitFlipper wrote

    I think a lot of people don't like the direction MS has been taking in the last 18-24 months or so. That is a big source of complaints and rightfully so. If no-one complains, MS might actually think they are doing the right thing.

    Although I agree this isn't the forum for MS feedback but since this forum is supposed to be about MS related technologies, I think you can't help but have it spill over here.

    Having constructive feedback is not the same as being negative.

    Being negative is saying "Windows 8 sucks". Being constructive is saying "What are the changes in Windows 8, and what were the reasons those changes were made?". Once (and only once) you understand why the changes were made, you can come to a better discussion about whether the parameters are sound (does everyone have a touch screen?) and if they are, whether Microsoft's approach given those parameters is sound.

    One of the things that I find so cool about C9 is the fact that when they talk to the developers, there's usually a really good reason behind decisions that you disagree with that surprise you because they come from a completely different direction.

    For example: "Gosh, Win8 sucks because I can't get into BIOS without first going into Windows. What a PITA", followed by the video (http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Inside-Windows-8-Chris-Stevens-Boot-Environment) leaving you saying "Oh, I had completely not thought that getting the keyboard active takes seconds on the boot process, and doing this in the BIOS rather than in parallel with other Windows drivers booting slows my boot process down by an average of 2-4 seconds". Given that constraint, suddenly I feel less bad about Windows doing it in the way it is doing it.

    This is why I hate all of the negativity on C9. C9 to me isn't a good place to complain that Microsoft did X, but is a totally awesome place for finding out why they made it the way they did.

    Complaining is boring and easy. Understanding is harder, but it's more fun too (as any good developer should know).

    That's not to say that Microsoft are always right (they often aren't). But complaining about Microsoft on C9 seems to me to just miss the potential and the awesomeness of C9. It's like going to a 5-star Michelin restaurant and complaining that the food sucks loudly in the restaurant  It's fine if that happens a couple of times, people can get on with it. It's even better if a bunch of real foodies come in and discuss the food at a high level - the chefs would love that.,

    But if too many people start to complain loudly, and it becomes almost "acceptable" or "normal" for everyone to say "nom nom nom, this food is terrible. Gosh nom nom this chef is awful, yes, waiter, more please nom nom" then you shouldn't be surprised that the chefs get fed up, close the restaurant and go home.

    C9 is a rare luxury. Apple has nowhere on the web quite as deep and technical as C9. Google has nowhere as awesome as C9. Microsoft only has C9. Don't screw it up by complaining too loud in their restaurant. If you don't like it, you're always free to go elsewhere.

  • androidi

    @evildictaitor:

    If those changes didn't contain things that raised immediate concerns, that would be very reasonable. But if Microsoft has an agenda to move people to a new UI paradigm in which they rake in 30% or whatever, that agenda may contain design decisions that are not obviously to the clients advantage. In such business scenario, the company must manage expectations. Meaning, instead of we asking "what changed and why", they should be very upfront, prior to us getting a bad first impression from any public (preview) release, about why they changed some things for apparently the worse coming from say Windows 7 in terms of pure non-touch usage.

     

     

  • magicalclick

    @evildictaitor: I will just disagree without the explanations. I will just self label myself as trolls if not already been labeled as one. And I don't believe my opinion would ever be considered constructive.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    Having constructive feedback is not the same as being negative.

    Being negative is saying "Windows 8 sucks". Being constructive is saying "What are the changes in Windows 8, and what were the reasons those changes were made?". Once (and only once) you understand why the changes were made, you can come to a better discussion about whether the parameters are sound (does everyone have a touch screen?) and if they are, whether Microsoft's approach given those parameters is sound.

    And there you go... If you're just going to roll up all of the issues discussed here with Windows 8 by we "complainers" as "Windows 8 sucks" then you're just as much of the problem. There have been a lot of detailed discussions here about Windows 8 issues that have gone well beyond "Windows 8 sucks". Certainly they're aren't very positive discussions and sometimes people go over the top but they do so from both sides of the argument.

    One of the things that I find so cool about C9 is the fact that when they talk to the developers, there's usually a really good reason behind decisions that you disagree with that surprise you because they come from a completely different direction.

    For example: "Gosh, Win8 sucks because I can't get into BIOS without first going into Windows. What a PITA", followed by the video (http://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Inside-Windows-8-Chris-Stevens-Boot-Environment) leaving you saying "Oh, I had completely not thought that getting the keyboard active takes seconds on the boot process, and doing this in the BIOS rather than in parallel with other Windows drivers booting slows my boot process down by an average of 2-4 seconds". Given that constraint, suddenly I feel less bad about Windows doing it in the way it is doing it.

    I would love, love, love it if C9 would provide more technical explanations behind these issues but more often than not it seems they go ignored. Microsoft apologists (not you in particular) fill the gap with labeling honest issues with "who moved the cheese" or other labels that put down the person reporting the issue or complaint. Labeling issues with "who moved the cheese" ignores the rest of the sentiment "who moved the cheese because now it's broken or more difficult".

    Where's the C9 technical response for the loss of clarity of text in IE? Where's the C9 technical response for the copy/paste issues?

    We need to stop excusing away issues because "it was just as bad when Windows X was released" and look at them for what they are; problems that Microsoft needs to address or respond to. Microsoft can choose to do nothing but we all know that leads us right back here.

    No doubt there are some here that use these forums solely to complain about Microsoft but there are plenty of others here who will as rudely and blindly defend Microsoft. Maybe we really just need to work on respecting each others points of view.

  • magicalclick

    On the plus side, some people complained about VS2013 gray triangle and it is green again in RTM. And UP is back. It is not entire lose. And most of all, taskbar is still persistently visible by default. It could have been default to auto-hide, or worse, ONLY auto-hide. If ONLY auto-hide taskbar is added to embrace the full screen experience, I would truly troll this forum at much higher effort. Gladly it didn't happen. And such good news, most of us take is for granted while another group of people would think we are nuts.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • gcorcoran

    I know a lot of people want a direct response from someone from MS about the various real problems that exist, but I think we need to be realistic here. Even if everyone here at C9 was reasonable and accepted what they said, words would be twisted and posted in various sites across the internet with a sensational headline:

    MICROSOFT ADMITS FAILURE

    We're living in an age where every official word needs to be chosen very carefully. When there are people here willing to throw MS under the bus, others will be even less sympathetic.

     

    I guess it'd be cool to know one of the developers and grab a beer or two and talk about it, but other than that I don't expect a satisfying official response.

  • TexasToast

    I think Microsoft admitted some failure when they parted ways with Sinofsky.   There are people at Microsoft who disagreed with some of Windows 8 moves.   What do people want to hear?   An apology.  Microsoft will eventually do the right thing.   It just takes a while to regroup. 

  • androidi

    Look what I found on MSFN, it's a start menu fix with several of the biggest Windows 8 issues addressed (disable hot corners is a key feature).

    I like that the author chose an approach of "reviving" the disabled start menu code existing in Windows 8.

    However even with these fixes in place, Windows 8 still comes with non-trivial under the hood changes which in my interpretation risk compatibility and performance changes of old applications. It's most prudent for me to wait for those who have time time and interest to sort out "bleeding edge issues". Windows 7 didn't come with such major changes and in Vista timeframe Channel 9 had done great job in communicating things ahead of time so I came in prepared to Vista, the only "show stopper" for Vista in my case was that Explorer bug that AFAIK still has not been fixed and made Vista completely unusable as a serious OS. Since that bug is gone with Windows 7, that just proves that it's a Vista problem and MS didn't care enough about Vista customers to fix a show stopper in SP. That's where Microsoft lost a great deal of trust, next step was IE9 fuzzy fonts. No fixes there either despite that being widely reported in good time before release. And then of course came all the crap with VS 2010 performance and 2012 looks and now the Windows 8 mess.

    Automated testing may be wonderful but it won't find perceived, visual or usability problems or things that the test automation programmers couldn't think of. If one doesn't take care to listen to user feedback about prior to release and address those one way or another, either the complaining continues or it will stop, which means that the complainers stopped caring about your product and moved to another product or won't upgrade anymore. I have been on the "don't care/upgrade" but since MS is now at work on next release after 8 is RTM, complaining may resume, as the alternative is to jump ship and I don't care about switching one set of OS issues to another + having to learn "new layout of piano keys" so to speak.

    Restored Desktop to its place With StartIsBack, computer starts to desktop. Always. Unlike other tools, which 'skip' Metro by sending keypresses, StartIsBack loads Metro alternative way and keeps it in its place.

    Restored Windows 7 Start Menu and Start Button There are tons of start menu clones (check the thread here), but they're all inferior. StartIsBack restores original Windows 7 start menu (with very special magic). It's NOT a replica, it's 100% original Start Menu as you remember it, with search, drag&drop, customization, etc. Start Menu is shown on Win key, as you expect. Start button is behaving as you remember it.

    Disabled hot corners By default, all but charms hot corners are disabled. You can customize which corners to show on desktop. And this works better than in any start menu clones i've tried.

    Modified Start Screen Now, we have Start and Start. Start Menu and Start Screen. Both search and start programs. Isn't that schizophrenic? So! Start Screen is no longer Start Screen. It's Apps Screen and shows only Metro programs (optionally). This way, Metro and Desktop experience are separated and Start screen is just a launcher for funny Metro apps, while real work and programs run in Desktop.

  • evildictait​or

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    And there you go... If you're just going to roll up all of the issues discussed here with Windows 8 by we "complainers" as "Windows 8 sucks" then you're just as much of the problem.

    No. I'm saying that people who just say "Windows 8 sucks" are the negativity problem that we have on C9.

    I have no problem with valid complaints being raised on C9. I think it's great to have discussions. I just don't like some users on this forum going on about issues that we've already heard.

    I think we've all established beyond all possible doubt that complaining about the start menu or the start screen interface on C9 doesn't magic a start menu into existence, so let's talk about something else.

    Continually going on and on about the same exhausted avenue of complaints when the people who are in a position to do something about it aren't here or aren't listening isn't feedback, it's brooding, and it's boring.

  • androidi

    Some perfectionist-made music for complainers to enjoy while complaining. Keep on complaining! That's how we got all these competing fixes to Windows 8, complaining created(ed:brought into light) a demand and creative people are now supplying. This could also be part of Microsofts release strategy of "every second release sucks" - to make the non-sucking release seem non-sucking, there has to be a sucking release first, otherwise you create an expectation of releases that become better each time and that would be hard to keep up for long. Smiley

    (Again, no idea why it's 10-15 FPS in IE8 while viewed embedded here)

  • exoteric

    I believe that any rational criticism is constructive in the sense that an argument against something is an argument for something else (creative destruction).

    That said, there are people whose purpose in life appear to orbit negatively-charged criticism (as good as-) 100% of the time. I like a good solid rant but there ought to be a counter-point, a passionate statement of positive bias once in a while from the same people. And this is a Microsoft forum, so it doesn't hurt if that positive bias is about something Microsoft-related -- otherwise why are you here anyway?

    Don't spend all energy on what you don't like: pour energy into what you do like (at least in a technology context). There are some threads, but could be more, about topics that people are positively passionate about.

    I positively enjoy the speculative threads by Felix. His threads are examples of enthusiasm. They don't dwell on negativity but focus on the positive future developments comming out of research (and development) teams.

    My 5 cents.

    PS - Passive by-standing does not improve things.

    Wink

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    No. I'm saying that people who just say "Windows 8 sucks" are the negativity problem that we have on C9.

    I have no problem with valid complaints being raised on C9. I think it's great to have discussions. I just don't like some users on this forum going on about issues that we've already heard.

    I think we've all established beyond all possible doubt that complaining about the start menu or the start screen interface on C9 doesn't magic a start menu into existence, so let's talk about something else.

    Continually going on and on about the same exhausted avenue of complaints when the people who are in a position to do something about it aren't here or aren't listening isn't feedback, it's brooding, and it's boring.

    I agree that harping on the same issue leads no where but Windows has a wide install base. Even in developer circles you'll have those that are late to the party and only now chime in resulting in the resurrection of an old complaint. Then out comes the same old "apologies" for those same complaints and the "debate" resumes. Eventually it will all die down for awhile until the next round of Microsoft gaffs. I just wish they'd have a few years were the gaffs weren't so air apparent. Then we'd have a lot less of these complaints and a lot more of "you can do that with Windows (.NET. C#. EF, LINQ, WinRT, etc)? Wow! I never knew that!"

    Even sadder from a this developer's point of view Microsoft has up-ended the apple cart on the direction of desktop technologies aside from recommending we "re-imagine" our applications as Windows 8 Store Apps. Not too long ago we got our customers to bite the bullet on a WPF/SL strategy and now we're supposed to tell them to upgrade their PC's to Windows 8 so we can write apps for them as Windows 8 Store Apps? Or we could tell them to stick with WPF/SL and just suck up bugs and limitations because fixes aren't coming and we're investing their money on a development stack that's for all intents and purposes deprocated? So now developers go from discussing Microsoft technologies to a broader conversation of where they should recommend customer spend their money (Android, iOS, Web, WinRT, etc.) IMO Microsoft lost a lot of trust with their handling of W8/WinRT, WPF/SL, etc these past several years so it has a lot of us asking broader questions. 

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • evildictait​or

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    I agree that harping on the same issue leads no where but Windows has a wide install base. Even in developer circles you'll have those that are late to the party and only now chime in resulting in the resurrection of an old complaint. Then out comes the same old "apologies" for those same complaints and the "debate" resumes. Eventually it will all die down for awhile until the next round of Microsoft gaffs. I just wish they'd have a few years were the gaffs weren't so air apparent. Then we'd have a lot less of these complaints and a lot more of "you can do that with Windows (.NET. C#. EF, LINQ, WinRT, etc)? Wow! I never knew that!"

    Even sadder from a this developer's point of view Microsoft has up-ended the apple cart on the direction of desktop technologies aside from recommending we "re-imagine" our applications as Windows 8 Store Apps. Not too long ago we got our customers to bite the bullet on a WPF/SL strategy and now we're supposed to tell them to upgrade their PC's to Windows 8 so we can write apps for them as Windows 8 Store Apps? Or we could tell them to stick with WPF/SL and just suck up bugs and limitations because fixes aren't coming and we're investing their money on a development stack that's for all intents and purposes deprocated? So now developers go from discussing Microsoft technologies to a broader conversation of where they should recommend customer spend their money (Android, iOS, Web, WinRT, etc.) IMO Microsoft lost a lot of trust with their handling of W8/WinRT, WPF/SL, etc these past several years so it has a lot of us asking broader questions. 

    I think you're forgetting that Microsoft is HUGE. They run an entire city of developers.

    The reason why you think Microsoft is crappy is because they're not very good at touting their better products, but don't mistake that for them not having written any. Here's a quick list of products supported in 2013 - it's not even all of them:

    Access 2013 15
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    Windows Server™ 2012 Remote Desktop Services External Connector 23
    Windows Server™ 2012 Active Directory Rights Management Services CAL 23
    Windows Server™Active Directory Rights Management Services External Connector 23
    Windows Server™ 2008 for Windows Essential Server Solutions Device CAL (5 clients) 23
    Windows Server™ 2008 for Windows Essential Server Solutions User CAL(5 clients) 23
    Windows Web Server 2008 R2 23
    Windows Small Business Server 2008 Premium 23
    Windows Small Business Server 2008 CAL Suite for Premium Users or Devices 23
    Windows Small Business Server 2008 CAL Suite for Premium Users or Devices (5 Clients) 23
    Windows Small Business Server 2008 CAL Suite for Premium Users or Devices (20 Clients) 23
    Windows Small Business Server 2011 Standard (5 clients) 23
    Windows Small Business Server 2011 CAL Suite (1 client) 24
    Windows Small Business Server 2011 CAL Suite (5 clients) 24
    Windows Small Business Server 2011 CAL Suite (20 clients) 24
    Windows Small Business Server 2011 Premium Add-on (5 clients) 24
    Windows Small Business Server 2011 Premium Add-on CAL Suite 24
    Windows Small Business Server 2011 Premium Add-on CAL Suite (5 clients) 24
    Windows Small Business Server 2011 Premium Add-on CAL Suite (20 clients) 24
    Microsoft Windows Server Essentials 2012 24
    Windows Small Business Server 2011 Essentials 24

     

    Microsoft makes some really awesome products. And even in the cases where they don't - usually the problem is the marketing or the UI. Microsoft has some fantastic developers and some brilliant technologies, and it's just simply not true that they are always badly made products or always "copying apple", because a lot of those products don't have an Apple equivalent (like Lync/Exchange/Office/VisualStudio/Bing/Azure/Intune/Server/IIS/Xbox just for starters). and most of them are actually pretty good.

    I think perhaps I would have more sympathy with people complaining about Microsoft if they were also able to give credit where it's due. The fact is that Microsoft's products are by-and-large so good you just don't notice that they're there, so you concentrate on the bits that get in the way.

    Condemning Microsoft as crappy because there's no start menu in Windows8 is equivalent to saying California is crap because one of the doors in one of the hotels doesn't have a door knob.

    And saying that Microsoft are trying to copy Apple is like saying Marriott Hotels is trying to copy Costa coffee because there's a Starbucks in the foyer. Sure you can get a similar coffee, but that kind of misses the fact that the two are fundamentally different companies doing fundamentally different things. Apple is good at Phones. Microsoft is good at consoles and OSes and search and documents and business management and so on.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    I think you're forgetting that Microsoft is HUGE. They run an entire city of developers.

    *snip*

    Microsoft makes some really awesome products. And even in the cases where they don't - usually the problem is the marketing or the UI. Microsoft has some fantastic developers and some brilliant technologies, and it's just simply not true that they are always badly made products or always "copying apple", because a lot of those products don't have an Apple equivalent (like Lync/Exchange/Office/VisualStudio/Bing/Azure/Intune/Server/IIS/Xbox just for starters). and most of them are actually pretty good.

    So because of the size of Microsoft and the number of products they produce we're supposed to ignore the specific problems they create or the broader direction they are taking with platforms such as Windows? I'm sure that will go over well with my customers. The only people I'll pity is the great engineers Microsoft has that are trapped behind politics and can't get their fantastic ideas into products that ship.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • evildictait​or

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

    So because of the size of Microsoft and the number of products they produce we're supposed to ignore the specific problems they create or the broader direction they are taking with platforms such as Windows? I'm sure that will go over well with my customers. The only people I'll pity is the great engineers Microsoft has that are trapped behind politics and can't get their fantastic ideas into products that ship.

    Well, let's wait two years and come back and see if Windows8 is a success or not. 

    Only one thing is certain: complaints on C9 about Windows8 didn't magic a change into RTM, and it's even less likely to magic a change into it now that it's shipped, so all you're doing by ranting and raving about how much is sucks on C9 is just sucking all of the oxygen out of the Coffeehouse and making the whole atmosphere negative.

    If your customers demand a start menu, go and install one from the Interwebs, or tell them to stick with Windows7. Problem solved.

  • Charles

    @exoteric: Agreed. Nobody's saying don't criticize, we're saying be critical in a thoughtful way, also known as shared critical thinking. Let's have the conversation, but let's do it in an intelligent way. Channel 9 is not smoke and mirrors - it never has been. Rather than pumping poison directly into the happy death star, why not pump some vitamins into it instead.

    Two way communication is just that. I'm finding that the threads in question are meant to be one-sided. How do we have intelligent discourse here? That's the question. Negativity is poison. Constructive criticism is a wheatgrass shot.
    C

  • magicalclick

    @Charles:

    Disagree. It hasn't been two way communication as you suggested. If that's the case, we wouldn't have so many negative threads that leads to this thread.

    Informed Complaints and Debates are mostly one sided. When did you see open source people switch to close source? When did you see gun control people switch to buying machine gun is ok? It is extremely rare.

    What can be two ways, is when the complain in question can be solved. For example,

    1. Show Computer Icon on desktop (not shortcut) in Win8? Solvable.
    2. Where is Quick Launch Bar in XP? Solvable. Evolved in Win7.
    3. Where is awesome Image Backup in Win8? Still solvable.
    4. Up Button. Manageable, but, still got a lot of complaints (I don't really care). Back in Win8.
    5. IE10 showing IE6 pages. Solvable.
    6. Metro IE cannot play Flash. Solvable.

    The complaints can be originated with lack of understanding. When we provides the information that can fill the gap of his lack of understanding, his problem is solved and happy on his way. The problem is, many of these negative threads, already know what is going on, but, still unhappy about it. Until the problem is solved, the complain will escalate as expected.

    Whatever Microsoft makes its decision, it will likely cause dissatisfactions. And we are seeing a lot of these threads because Microsoft messed up a lot more customers than before.

     

    Honestly, Dovela is the only hardcore level 9000+ Microsoft fan whom has been put down by many fellow niners. I have seen it so many times that even makes me feels like he has been bullied. Do any of us actually noticed he is gone?

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • Charles

    @magicalclick: The C9 team notices. We do miss Novela. Some people are just unfriendly - it's easy to be mean on public forums where you're represented by some graphical icon as, in most cases, a might-as-well-be-anonymous entity... Novela didn't belittle his detractors or post flamebait.

    My point wasn't that two-way conversation means "you make a comment, MS responds in some software update", as you assert. Conversation happens on C9. It's the C9 fractal. It's what we're doing here, in fact!

    The point about negativity is that being negative doesn't make for rational discourse - the arguments are mostly based on emotional response (anger, fear, disappointment, aggravation, etc...). Perhaps all we're talking about here is tone. Present a criticism in a way that stimulates reasonable discourse (as in contains conversation laced with healthy amounts of reason). It's not a difficult concept, really.

    C

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