Coffeehouse Thread

51 posts

Why so much negativity?

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  • magicalclick

    @Charles:

    Yeah, I understand what you mean by tone, although I am not sure which hurts more. The "elite polite" attitude is not really helping IMO. 

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • evildictait​or

    , magicalclick wrote

    @Charles:

    Yeah, I understand what you mean by tone, although I am not sure which hurts more. The "elite polite" attitude is not really helping IMO. 

    It is entirely reasonable to agree to disagree. Reasonable discourse does not require one person to "win" the argument. It just requires everyone to be civil.

    For instance, I recognise that many people on C9 don't like Windows8's decision to not have a start menu, and I respect (although disagree with) their opinion that it is a deficiency. The point is that they have stated their position, and those who disagree with them have stated theirs. Neither side is budging so the best that can be achieved is to agree to disagree.

    That's why I keep saying that we shouldn't be having those discussions. Not I think critiscm of MS is unwelcome on C9 - far from it - but because we've already had that discussion and because most of what's posted doesn't move the conversation forwards, it just keeps echoing the same conversation over and over.

  • Charles

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    It is entirely reasonable to agree to disagree. Reasonable discourse does not require one person to "win" the argument. It just requires everyone to be civil.

    Exactly.

    C

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    Well, let's wait two years and come back and see if Windows8 is a success or not. 

    It's not about its success in two years. It's about problems it creates now and how we deal with them. It's also a matter of trust: do we trust Microsoft to show us a better way in the coming months or years or do we move our customers on to another technology that we feel would serve them better. As a long time developer I'd prefer to stick with Microsoft but they had made it needlessly difficult to do so.

    , Charles wrote

    @exoteric: Agreed. Nobody's saying don't criticize, we're saying be critical in a thoughtful way, also known as shared critical thinking. Let's have the conversation, but let's do it in an intelligent way. 

     

    That goes both ways Charles. Complainer and fanboy alike. It's pretty clear that there are as many here would rudely put down a criticism as there are those who rudely criticize.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • Charles

    @DeathByVisualStudio: I'm not condoning either... Civility and Reason lie somewhere in the middle of the extremes you mention.

    C

  • magicalclick

    @evildictaitor: yes, discussing same thing over and over is tiring. But, it is also an evident of escalated problem. If it is a topic of gun control or open source, I would believe the escalation is unavoidable. But for some newly created issues that could have been avoided, the repeated complaints only demonstrated the continuous frustration these people have to deal with and has yet to be solved. If not solved, we can only hope those oldies catch up or die out of old age.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , Charles wrote

    @DeathByVisualStudio: I'm not condoning either... Civility and Reason lie somewhere in the middle of the extremes you mention.

    C

    I keep harping on it because those complaining about the complainers don't ever call out the rude fanbois and apologists. It's as if as long as you are saying nice things about Microsoft then you can be as rude and/or arrogant as you want. If both sides aren't called out (fainboi, troll, or otherwise) in the future the extremes and rudeness that go with it will always be present here. One side or the other will plant the seed of negativity that gets things going.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • Kental2

    @DeathByVisualStudio: While I don't disagree in general with your statement, I'm curious: who would you consider to be a fanboi or apologist on channel9 right now?  Dovella was the last person I could remember that was an all-out unapologetic cheerleader.  I'm not calling you out, I'm just genuinely curious who you had in mind with that Tongue Out

  • cbae

    , Richard.Hein wrote

    Ok, I'll try harder, and I hope lurkers like you will answer, even if it is just a, "+1", or "interesting" comment, so I know it isn't all a waste of energy.

    +1

  • wastingtime​withforums
  • TexasToast

    @wastingtimewithforums:  I have to agree with his points on application distribution.   If I want to make a few personal / group applications I have to either get an enterprise license or go through the app store.  Not everything you develop needs to go to the general store.   It is another thing they got wrong.   They need to really rethink some of these bone headed views.  I don't mind them adding features,  it is the removal of features that the windows 7 had that is irking most people.   To be positive, I really like that hyper-v is in the product and it is nice to have the multiuser settings saved in the cloud.   The fast bootup time is also a big plus.

  • evildictait​or

    , TexasToast wrote

    @wastingtimewithforums:  I have to agree with his points on application distribution.   If I want to make a few personal / group applications I have to either get an enterprise license or go through the app store.  Not everything you develop needs to go to the general store.   It is another thing they got wrong.   They need to really rethink some of these bone headed views.  I don't mind them adding features,  it is the removal of features that the windows 7 had that is irking most people.   To be positive, I really like that hyper-v is in the product and it is nice to have the multiuser settings saved in the cloud.   The fast bootup time is also a big plus.

    If you're making the app for yourself, you don't need to go through the store or get an enterprise licence.

  • DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , Kental2 wrote

    @DeathByVisualStudio: While I don't disagree in general with your statement, I'm curious: who would you consider to be a fanboi or apologist on channel9 right now?  Dovella was the last person I could remember that was an all-out unapologetic cheerleader.  I'm not calling you out, I'm just genuinely curious who you had in mind with that Tongue Out

    Yeah naming people wouldn't start a flame ware here...  Perplexed

    Dovella was certainly a cheerleader but he wouldn't condemn people if they disagreed. I didn't mind him at all.

  • TexasToast

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    If you're making the app for yourself, you don't need to go through the store or get an enterprise licence.

    @evildictaitor:

    I know that.   It is more or less making test apps or utility apps that I would distribute to a department or maybe a dozen people to facilitate some functions in making their job easier.   It is not always enterprise because some of these apps go outside of the company.   I am sticking with windows 7 desktop but a path forward on windows metro is not an option.  I think also LOB developers will have some of these same problems.   Also even on the phone,  if you just wanted to write your own family map and you go over the number of registered devices you have a problem.  They are taking some of the fun out of it.   Android does not have this problem by the way. ( and no I am not a fan of Android .. just sayin) 

    Evil, on another subject, your a smart guy (I like a lot of your posts on the technical side),  why do you care if some of these guys * about things they don't like.  When you complain about them you become one of them and rattle their cages more.

  • evildictait​or

    TexasToast wrote

    Evil, on another subject, your a smart guy (I like a lot of your posts on the technical side),  why do you care if some of these guys * about things they don't like.  When you complain about them you become one of them and rattle their cages more.

    I was only doing it because I like to challenge opinions which I feel are too heavily biased. For this reason I kind of end up appearing really strongly Microsoft-biased on C9 because there's so little counter-balance to some of the anti-Microsoft statements made here that I routinely end up having to play devil's advocate on behalf of Microsoft just to challenge those who are being critical of it. Actually at Microsoft when I visit I'm usually seen as quite strongly critical of many of their decisions because the roles are entirely reversed (I actually raised the start menu with the UX team so often during January last year that it was almost a catchphrase).

    I originally complained about complaining just because it felt like someone needed to point out the obvious (indeed so obvious that at least two other people have opened threads to note the fact): that excessive complaining on C9 was creating a negative atmosphere and clearly wasn't solving the problems that were being brought up, and so I thought rather than debating the issues (which had already been debated to death), that we should all call it quits and decide that (for example) Windows 8 doesn't have a start menu, and that everyone on C9 is aware that some other people on C9 think that this is a bad thing.

    I didn't want to halt rational discourse on the (or any) subject; I'm certainly opposed to blanket censorship of any topic on C9 -  I just really wanted the negativity to just halt for a short while to let people catch their breath and allow some more positive threads to reach the top of C9 and stop scaring away some of our more interesting contributors with excessive negativity.

    I never really expected that my suggestion would be met with such resistance. Perhaps I was naive to think that having pointed out the negativity that those on both sides of the undying debatapocalypse threads would see the effect that being negative pushes good contributors away and doesn't really solve any problems, but I can see now that I was probably wrong to think that. I suppose it's pretty clear that this kind of meta-complaining didn't really help, so I've decided to stop complaining about it, and will in future just ignore the toxic threads and hope they burn themselves out.

    On the other hand, It was fun to watch some people taking it up a notch by complaining about the meta-complaining.

    I'll be the first to say that I'm not perfect, and I deserve a fair slice of the blame I suppose for fanning the flames. But anyway, it's a new year and nearly a new Spring - and there's always time to try something new and go in a different direction.

    So anyway, here's to C9 in 2013. May it be better, more positive, more interesting and more friendly to all of our contributors! Yay us!

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