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Windows 8: I am truely worried and I need answers.

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  • User profile image
    WhatDoYou​Mean

    Hello everyone,

    I haven't tried out Windows 8 Beta yet but from the stuff I read it seems that "regular applications" are now considered "legacy" and we eventually MUST deply ALL future applications written in WinRT through Windows Marketplace.

    My questions are the following, if you can please address and answer these questions, it would be much appreciated:

    1. If I got a business application in need of a quick and rapid critical update, how will the marketplace handle this? Waiting 24 hours or 1 week is not acceptable.
    2. Private applications shared between friends or inside a small business where there are only client PCs and no server... how do you deploy a WinRT application in such a scenario if you do not wish to use the Windows marketplace in order to keep the application private?
    3. Private applications for scientific research shared between colleagues where is it unacceptable to be published anywhere near "public" places such as Windows marketplace without being forced to buy a Windows server and deploy it from that?
    4. Not wanting to give up 30% (1/3) one third of your profit?

    From my understanding so far, Microsoft wants to take the role of the current book publishers where you "basically" cannot sell your application unless paying Microsoft 30% and also giving them a large control over your business.

    If there is no way to deply WinRT applications without the use of this Orwellian "Marketplace" where it actually is not a marketplace at all or without needing to have a special Windows Server in place, it is a highly worrisome situation where "your PC" is no longer yours. It takes the role of a cable TV device.

    Does the above mean that Microsoft is no longer offering an operating system but a locked down "phone"/"point of sale"-system where "your PC" is now a cable TV device where they dictate what channels will be on? ...and on top of the licensing fees, they now forcibly take 30% of your profit?

    Why should we develop for WinRT if the above are true and the case? I see no reason in continued investment in Windows in that case eventhough I am a huge fan of Windows, despite what people say, due to Windows' openness and the great development experience it offers I am a huge fan of it.

    The issues above is highly critical for me and my business and they show a complete change of the entire PC-industry in that case.

    I am by no means a fan of other operating systems but since the above is a highly worrisome situation, I am truely concerned and worried.

    If the above is true, it means that Windows 8 and forward is no longer a viable development platform unless of course you need a weather "app" or "angry birds".

    The second where Microsoft ( or any other corporation ) starts jailing in the free movement of applications, the second you need to "jailbreak" or "hack" a device... the device is no longer "yours". "jailbreaking" is not an option because it inherently still supports this behaviour due to continued use of the "jailed operating system".

    I have no interest in renting a device. That is why I joined the PC-industry. It's mine and I feel free in it. If above is true, it means that the PC-industry as we knew it does no longer exist and people like me need to move on to other fields of business.

    Please bear in mind that the above is only questions which I need to have answer for. I by no mean want to nag on Microsoft or try to change their decision.

    The only real "action" I as an individual can take is to quit the development field, which I absolutely will do if all the above is true. Not a penny or a minute more will there be put on new development for Windows and WinRT from us is above is the case.

    Half disclosure without revealing who I am:
    Currenly I have roughly 4000 business users for my application.

    The line on the sand has already been drawn and very sadly, it is seems that the time is getting very close to say: Thus far you shall come, but no farther.

    Thank you for your time,

    /regards

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    I would recommend you to try Windows 8 CP and form your own opinion.

  • User profile image
    peteh

    Turned off immediately with a post that starts "I haven't tried out Windows 8 Beta yet but..."

  • User profile image
    Craig_​Matthews

    Is there something illegitimate about his questions? Having used or having not used Windows 8 doesn't preclude him from being able to ask these reasonable questions, especially based on everything that we've been told.

    From everything that we've been told, the only conclusion that I am able to come up with is that eventually, we will not be able to write our own apps for our own use without a) using a public store, or b) buying an expensive app deployment server. I asked this question in another thread and no one seems to have an answer. All I've seen is "WinRT is for Metro apps", "Metro apps will only be deployable through the app store", and "WinRT is the way Windows apps will be developed in the future." What other conclusion am I or the OP supposed to make?

     

     

  • User profile image
    PaoloM

    Ok, his questions are fair. However, Microsoft has not divulged their plans for all types of deployment, so nobody here either: a) doesn't know or b) can't say. In both cases you have no answer.

    So asking this kind of questions is pointless and serves nothing more than whipping trolls into a frenzy.

  • User profile image
    spivonious

    Judging by the fact that VB6 apps still run fine on Windows 8, no one is forcing you to write WinRT metro apps.

    But yes, from what I've read, all WinRT apps must go through the Marketplace, with options for businesses to do private deployments. I don't know if that means the Microsoft servers or local servers that show up in the marketplace of connected PCs.

    Microsoft's primary customer is the enterprise. Do you really think they'd alienate that crowd?

    And PLEASE install it and try it for yourself. You lose a lot of credibility by not trying it.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    Correct me if I'm wrong but if you use the Windows Mobile to Windows Phone transition as a model then yes Microsoft plans to lock deployments of software into the store model. When it was announced that WP would be a closed system Microsoft said that they would release a "business version" of the OS or some form of WP/WM that businesses could side-load apps on without having to release them through the market. Maybe I have some misconceptions here but that never happened to my knowledge. If that's true I would suspect that Microsoft would do the same thing with W8 and WinRT apps.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , WhatDoYouMean wrote

    Hello everyone,

    I haven't tried out Windows 8 Beta yet

    Then you should try it before judging.

    but from the stuff I read it seems that "regular applications" are now considered "legacy" and we eventually MUST deply ALL future applications written in WinRT through Windows Marketplace.

    That is simply not true. Microsoft has made vast commitment to supporting old applications, and no announcement has been made that that strategy will change anytime soon.

    1. If I got a business application in need of a quick and rapid critical update, how will the marketplace handle this? Waiting 24 hours or 1 week is not acceptable.
    You are not compelled to use the Windows8 appstore. If you need super-quick turnaround you can use your own distribution mechanism outside of the Metro interface. For corporate customers Microsoft may supply a group policy to allow corporate customers to use an alternative appstore. For all other customers you'll just have to suck up any delay that might occur whilst verifying your app against the appstore guidelines. 
     
    2. Private applications shared between friends or inside a small business where there are only client PCs and no server... how do you deploy a WinRT application in such a scenario if you do not wish to use the Windows marketplace in order to keep the application private?
    You are not compelled to use the Windows8 appstore for non-metro applications. You will be able to install dev-certs to help you write your own metro-apps, and your close friends may choose to install your dev-certs too. For everyone else on Metro you'll have to use the Windows8 app-store and live with the delay.
     
    3. Private applications for scientific research shared between colleagues where is it unacceptable to be published anywhere near "public" places such as Windows marketplace without being forced to buy a Windows server and deploy it from that?
    These applications are unlikely to be built for Metro, and there are no restrictions for non-metro applications.
    4. Not wanting to give up 30% (1/3) one third of your profit?
    Don't use Windows8 appstore if you don't agree to the terms of use.

     

    From my understanding so far, Microsoft wants to take the role of the current book publishers where you "basically" cannot sell your application unless paying Microsoft 30% and also giving them a large control over your business.

    That's what Apple do. Difference is that unlike the iPhone where you must use the appstore, on Windows8 you don't have to - it's only required for Metro.

    If there is no way to deply WinRT applications without the use of this Orwellian "Marketplace" where it actually is not a marketplace at all or without needing to have a special Windows Server in place, it is a highly worrisome situation where "your PC" is no longer yours. It takes the role of a cable TV device.

    In those cases, don't use WinRT or the Windows8 appstore. Legacy development for the desktop will still be an option. Just not for Metro or for WOA.

    Does the above mean that Microsoft is no longer offering an operating system but a locked down "phone"/"point of sale"-system where "your PC" is now a cable TV device where they dictate what channels will be on? ...and on top of the licensing fees, they now forcibly take 30% of your profit?


    Why should we develop for WinRT if the above are true and the case? I see no reason in continued investment in Windows in that case eventhough I am a huge fan of Windows, despite what people say, due to Windows' openness and the great development experience it offers I am a huge fan of it.

    The Windows8 appstore gives you visibility, abstracts the process of taking money from customers, centralizes distribution and updates and allows you to use the new metro interface. If you don't want or need these features you can do-it-yourself on the desktop. 

    The second where Microsoft ( or any other corporation ) starts jailing in the free movement of applications, the second you need to "jailbreak" or "hack" a device... the device is no longer "yours". "jailbreaking" is not an option because it inherently still supports this behaviour due to continued use of the "jailed operating system".

    There will still be some heavy restrictions on WOA - but this is also the case on BB, Android and iPhone. For x86 there will be no need to jailbreak anything to do what you want. Metro is Win8-appstore only, but the desktop is still as it always was.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    , DeathByVisualStudio wrote

    Correct me if I'm wrong but if you use the Windows Mobile to Windows Phone transition as a model then yes Microsoft plans to lock deployments of software into the store model. When it was announced that WP would be a closed system Microsoft said that they would release a "business version" of the OS or some form of WP/WM that businesses could side-load apps on without having to release them through the market. Maybe I have some misconceptions here but that never happened to my knowledge. If that's true I would suspect that Microsoft would do the same thing with W8 and WinRT apps.

    They are going to have "Beta" category in WP7 marketplace. Hasn't happen yet, but, it was announced.

    I suppose if you are going to share it with a friend and skip all the deployment issues, share it with source code, eeeekkk.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    @spivonious: As someone who has written a few VB6 apps, I can say, with certainty, that they didn't run that fine to begin with. But, the fact that they can still load, process some data, and quit, without crashing, on Windows 8. Well, that's nothing short of amazing.

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    WhatDoYou​Mean

    Although I stated that I did not tried Windows 8 beta yet... my questions are still fully valid and justified. Trying out the beta does nothing to clear my concerns.

    Someone said "Turned off immediately with a post that starts...". You posted a reply to just tell me that? That is kind of weird and hardly scientific or logical, to not even read the post before forming any kind of impression/opinion regarding the contents of it.

    Clearly are my worries and questions not that much related to testing the beta and testing the beta obviously does not answer my questions. People who HAVE tested the beta still have the same questions and concerns as I do.

    Worrisome it is when people say things like "Do not worry, you can still write legacy applications.". You don't say? I never asked if I would be able to write "legacy" applications and that was not part of my questions but because Microsoft stated WinRT is the future, sticking with "legacy application" is not a viable solution for an evolving business.

    I was going to say, no heart feelings here but I must admit that I expected more than "try the beta" from Channel9 but I chose not to say it.

    Wink

    The only clarity I can find so far is that nothing is clear and it seems that no one here knows the answer to these concerns or is able to address them, however.

    Thank you everyone for your time.

    /regards

  • User profile image
    01001011

    Does it bother anybody else that App stores started in 2008 and they're just now pushing people towards it on Windows what will be 5 years later?

    Java was already big in 1996, and only in 2000 did they release .NET.

    In a short time frame this whole generation may go in a completely different direction, and Windows developers will be totally out of the picture.

    It's like telling people

    don't use YouTube, use Soapbox 2 years later instead!, We have millions of MSN users that will instantly convert from other MSN services and push Soapbox ahead of YouTube. It translates sooooo well

    Those MSN service users just went and used YouTube anyway. Those services don't translate because the difference between MSN and YouTube was too great. The difference between Windows OS and iTunes Connect is too great and too late.

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    Keep in mind that even though Windows 8, is er um, the one after Windows 7, there are a lot of 1.0 parts. I can't remember a Microsoft product that hit the ball out of the park with the 1.0 release.

    What I would be concerned about, is the outcome of investing substantial resources into a complete rewrite of my bread-and-butter app, so that I could get it out the door, on day one, when it might take years for most of my customers to adopt whatever WinRT based OS that comes out of Redmond, and lose the opportunity to write something like an iOS app that could get my customers excited today.

    -Josh

     

  • User profile image
    01001011

    @JoshRoss: I don't think the Windows platform can live by extinguishing piracy through deprecating Win32 applications. There just isn't enough money on the planet out there to cover the licensing costs of half of the software that's currently running on most peoples' machines worldwide.

    If Windows 8 turns out to be half as tough as iOS, XBox or PS3 something's going to bust big time. My only question is how to make cash off of that situation.

  • User profile image
    contextfree`

    "When it was announced that WP would be a closed system Microsoft said that they would release a "business version" of the OS or some form of WP/WM that businesses could side-load apps on without having to release them through the market. Maybe I have some misconceptions here but that never happened to my knowledge."

    I don't think there was ever an official statement like that, it was just a rumor that was going around at the time.

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    @1001011: I don't think that it is nearly as much about extinguishing win32 piracy as it is geting a cut of the 3rd party app profits.

    It kind of reminds me of when Microsoft was soft on piracy, when there was all kinds of competition. As soon as WordPerfect, 123, and the whole other slew of market leading apps went the way of whitney houston, it's genuine advantage time. Think of Windows 8 as Genuine Advantage 2.0.

    Just out of curiosity, what aspect of iOS, XBox or PS3 was tough? And, for whom?

     

    -Josh

  • User profile image
    01001011

    @JoshRoss:

    The fact that XBox, PS3 and current versions of iOS are not jailbroken and can not be patched with a mod-chip.

    If Microsoft creates a store authority for most personal end users, a lot of people won't be able to afford to use the same software anymore(because they can't pay for it). The providers can lower their prices, but we know this not to be the case as they associate windows with big margins. There will be no $9.99 Windows version of Photoshop.

    Microsoft won't even support used games anymore on XBox in the next gen to kill off gamestop:

    http://www.thisxboxlife.com/2012/01/no-used-games-on-next-xbox/

    There is probably some way to make large money off of this. This is the kind of greed that disrupts an industry.

  • User profile image
    JoshRoss

    @1001011: Jailbreaking aside, people are flocking to gaming consoles. Sometimes I wonder, who is gaming whom. With the ridiculous DRM, game pricing, and membership fees, it is total disadvantageous to any sound minded individual to get in bed with these pimps.

    The only way to win this game is to not play at all.

    -Josh

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