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Windows 8 and microsoft - One i hate the other i hate even more now - this is why

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  • User profile image
    Mr Crash

    Oh look i found the forum. What is my reward ? (see ARM comments below)
    Windows 8:
    What i've seen i hate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p92QfWOw88I)
    http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/presskits/windows7/videoGallery.aspx?cont
    Because microsoft is focusing on the mobile platforms and is too cheap to have a separate branch for it they have forced users yet again to pay. This time with mobile bloat that for normal computer users will be awkward to use and have in their face.

    All i can say is: wtf, really!

    Most if not all normal _real_ computers do not have a molest screen and doing this with a mouse is just extra work ! Stop changing things that work god damn it !
    What happened with "a good user experience" bs you regurgitated when ever you opened your mouth ?

    • Is Windows 8 another vista (shorthorn) with a mobile twist ?
    • How much will these "features" eat up of my monthly internet bandwidth plan ?
    • Will w8 even able to function without an internet connection ?
    • I'm guessing these new "features" will increase the minimum system spec too. Kissing hardware manufacturers * again, more under the table deals ? Microsoft should have enough money to not have to resort to shady deals.
    • "We wanted to get really fast and fluid to get between your running apps". Uhm? Whats wrong with ATL+TAB or Win+TAB ? This animation crap will only make it slow down you idiots !
    • That start screen with bigger icons will become a scroll fetish. Do i even have to mention the performance penalties ? This is the start screen! Doing more is BAD. Haven't you learned anything from vista and w7 ? Like going back to windows xp or dare i say vista, having to wait above 5 minutes for all bloat / ego apps (java "quick start", adobe reader "quick start", etc..) to load before being able to do anything.

    What about this ARM thing: "Oh look it runs on ARM cpus! < awaits applause's >"
    They say it like it is hard to port it to ARM.

    (Fun game for the very bored: Count how many times microsoft employees say "ARM". The person that says it the most wins the kiss-* forehead stamp)

    My comment to this:
    Aw! was it hard ? Poor you, want a cookie ?

    Are microsoft programmers really that incompetent that they think its hard to port ?
    OR do you just not have enough news / features to show so you make a chicken out of a feather with the ARM port thing ?
    OR do you make a big deal out of it so you can ask for even more money for windows 7 ?
    Is my soul not enough for you ?

    Either way it's disgusting.
    If you don't have anything to show then wait until you have something to show !
    Is that so bloody hard ?

    Microsoft up with it's old tricks again, trying to pull crap like this.

    Should i give the EU lawyers a heads up already ?
    Microsoft definitely did NOT learn its lesson the first time.
    All the things in video #1 are just bloat. To put it short and simple.
    "We will continue to improve and increase the performance of windows" so that was yet another lie.
    All this crap is for mobile hardware, where is the stuff for the computer user ? 
    Well that was video #1. I dare you to release a video #2.
    As the less intelligent say:  Bring it "biatch"!
     
    I only tell it based on microsoft's actions. Don't whine to me, i'm just the interpreter !

  • User profile image
    contextfree`

    I'm not sure why you're complaining about performance penalties that we have no evidence of existing. Besides that they say the required hardware specs won't increase from 7, we already have Windows Phone 7.x with basically the same features running on weaker hardware and it performs just fine. It doesn't require a constant internet connection either.

    I did chuckle at "molest screen" though.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    @Mr Crash: You make reasoned points, but you come across as crass and immature.

    Stop. Calm down. Breath. Count to ten.

    Yes, I'm patronising you Smiley

    It sounds to me like you expect all operating systems' user experiences to work the same way they did in Windows 95: simple, static, low-resource usage.

    That is an acceptable opinion to hold 15 years ago, when you had 16MB of RAM and 133Mhz to play with.

    Now we have 500 times that memory and 200 times the processing power (multiplied again for multicore SMP). If you look at a typical computer when it's running even the most intensive tasks you'll see a lot of the available resources go unusued: effectively wasted. Even running Crysis 2 on my desktop doesn't bring it past the 3GB RAM mark (my system has 6GB) and none of my four cores is saturated.

    We can use this spare power to drive fluid, smooth, and engaging user-interfaces. I'm sure you think yourself as a "power user" who doesn't need animated window transitions or other gimmicky effects, but think about the 80% of the world's computer users who don't spend all day in front of their machines. For them these animations are not eye-candy, but actually provide essential information on how their computer operates: notice how windows minimize to an button on the taskbar rather than just disappearing, this tells them that they can restore the window by clicking on that button. Everything serves a purpose.

    I used to think the same way you do (really, honestly) but you need to think about everything, and also remind yourself that the people who design the UIs on major software titles have advanced degrees (often PhDs) in how a user experience should be, so you can rest assured they made the right, evidence-based, decisions. Think about it.

     

     

    As for porting stuff over to ARM, you really don't know much about computer science and operating system design. Porting an OS (even a 'portable' OS like Linux or NT) to a different ISA is not a trivial task. There are always platform-specific optimisations that have to be made, just because the majority of Windows is written in C/C++ and not assembly does not mean it's just as simple as changing the compiler target from x86 to ARM and hitting "Build".

    If you think it's so simple, I challenge you to port Linux to PDP-8 (it's possible, but hasn't been done yet) and then we'll talk Smiley

  • User profile image
    Mr Crash

    http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/presskits/windows7/videoGallery.aspx?contentID=win8_preview1&WT.z_convert=Share#channel_contentListTop

    It's like the keyboard and mouse was an after thought. 

    "oh btw it works for keyboard and mouse too"

    "Windows Phone 7" - Oh don't get me started 

  • User profile image
    beerinbelgi​um

    @Mr Crash:

    Um, can't you just switch over to Mac and ChromeOS?

    I'm in the process of switching over right now.

    For example I'm ditching Cakewalk for Protools 9 since Protools now supports non-digidesign DAWs like my FW-1884. Ditching photoshop for Apeture, ect... Ditching Premier for Final Cut.

    That new ChromeOS laptop from Google I/O 2011 should be here in a week or something and I'm hoping it will be a good replacement for my pricey Vaio which I totally didn't like.

    Why not just ditch Windows if you're so mad?

    You'd be surprised how nice Apple is now. As far as tablets, I would not give up the 10.1" Samsung Galaxy on Honeycomb for any Windows tablet device ever.

    If you don't like Windows deprecate it. When enough people deprecate it, it will become deprecated.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    , beerinbelgi​um wrote

    @Mr Crash:

    Um, can't you just switch over to Mac and ChromeOS?

    Don't you use a Sony Vaio laptop? Vaios are notorious for not supporting anything besides the version of Windows they shipped with.

    For example I'm ditching Cakewalk for Protools 9 since Protools now supports non-digidesign DAWs like my FW-1884. Ditching photoshop for Apeture, ect... Ditching Premier for Final Cut.

    The graphic design of the software you created was atrocious. I can only imagine your audiable and video results will be worse. If you're such a good software developer why do you need to fiddle around with DCC tools?

    That new ChromeOS laptop from Google I/O 2011 should be here in a week or something and I'm hoping it will be a good replacement for my pricey Vaio which I totally didn't like.

    Why not just ditch Windows if you're so mad?

    Ironic, as you spoke about companies' biggest assets as their locked-in customer base for their subscription or web-based services, and here you are: promoting a laptop that ensures users have even less rights and abilities than before. At least with desktop software (even the most closed) you have your data in your hands, with the cloud that isn't possible. You can't "export" your Facebook social network to disk.

  • User profile image
    beerinbelgi​um

    @W3bbo:

    At least with desktop software (even the most closed) you have your data in your hands, with the cloud that isn't possible. You can't "export" your Facebook social network to disk.

    A lot of businesses are now using Google Apps, and MSFT has released 365, and they're going that way too.

    Even with the Sony data hijacking I still use PSN as are most people.

    We're not going back to the way things were 10-20 years ago. Microsoft is late to this game with Windows 8.

    What's being whined about here is inevitable. Cloud music storage and pretty much any cloud service is portable, and people just use too many computing devices today compared to 20 years ago.

    I was in Belgium controlling the Amazon Cloud network with a RSA key pair for security for example.

    It would be nice if Sony had RSA authentication on Playstation the way AWS does for sFTP login, but even without that, the point is we have to be able to do anything from anywhere on any device securely.

    The operating system has to be a thin client going ahead into the future. Just like Sun micro-systems had envisioned with the Sun One devices 15 years ago.

    Generic Forum Image

    The way Sun tried to do it with a proprietary VNC and that was clearly wrong, and for that they paid. I mean they basically went out of business and sold their assets.

    All those online music editors(virtual online Protools AJAX apps) and video editors(virtual TV video mixing studios) that failed 2 years ago will suddenly be possible in 4-5 years with better internet and native code running in browsers like Chrome.

    People don't want to work alone on a machine using software, they want to collaborate in real time on the network. For some types of media, such as music editing, video editing, ect.... that's been a hard thing to do.

    Windows as it is now is really bad at letting people share and collaborate. I don't see that improving much with Windows 8, but they're copying Google, and that's where Google's headed at least. So eventually Microsoft will get there too through these incremental changes.

  • User profile image
    W3bbo

    The scary thing is that you're actually correct.

    30-40 years from now the concept of a "local" computer will be limited to academia and computing eccentrics. "Hardcore gamers" will be defined by the size of their OnLive subscriptions and not the difficulty of putting together their watercooled triple-SLI gaming rig.

    It's bad enough that Valve's games are distributed only through Steam which restricts the ability to make backups (but piracy still exists) it's only a matter of time before games are provided only through OnLive which will eliminate the possibility of piracy entirely.

    Before long, the only users of in-house computing power will be the same Fortune 500 companies that still hang on to their Big Iron main-frames and VAX computers.

    They can take my GTX580 from my cold, dead, fingers.

  • User profile image
    beerinbelgi​um

    That's not a bad thing.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/22/electronic-waste

    Generic Forum Image

    A software based system where you only upgrade your device when it breaks(because it never grows old) would be way better than what we have now.

    When Graphene devices start rolling out from Samsung, we're going to be dumping all these iPads and 10.1" honeycomb tablets in the same landfills as the old 286 computers. Nobody's going to want an iPad or tablet when you can have graphene.

    This type of thing has to stop. There is no way to automatically process the amount of waste that's produced by Windows OEMs.

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=graphene&aq=f

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    , beerinbelgi​um wrote

     

    Windows as it is now is really bad at letting people share and collaborate. I don't see that improving much with Windows 8, but they're copying Google, and that's where Google's headed at least. So eventually Microsoft will get there too through these incremental changes.

    I'm confused - OS/X doesn't enable people to share. iOS doesn't. Phone 7 doesn't. Android doesn't. That's an application level feature, not an OS level one. Supply a TCP/IP stack and let apps take care of it.

  • User profile image
    beerinbelgi​um

    @blowdart:

    Did I mention Apple?

    I was talking about ChromeOS, not Android, and yet since you mention it a lot of Android mobile apps allow people to share information socially, but most of them do not allow collaboration.

    That's an application level feature, not an OS level one.

    Well there's your first mistake. Every app should have the collaborative ability of an MMORPG. Every app will in the future. Whether that's on Windows or not is still up in the air.
    That's what's drawing people to cloud based applications that already existed on the Desktop.

    I was talking about Protools so lets use that as an example. People will put up with slow and shitty online mixing apps simply because they have the possibility of collaborating to create music on a network. They won't get the same experience as Protools in another 10 years online, but people put up with it just for the chance of that happening.

    There are lots of people not into gaming that want the same networked experience with other software than video games.

    It's not that you can't build it into Desktop apps but application developers would never put the time into creating their own stack to do that. Even if a common stack existed the mere mindset of Desktop software devs and product managers would negate it.

    In App Collaboration has been the key to nearly every non-search success at Google for the past 5 years.

  • User profile image
    blowdart

    , beerinbelgi​um wrote

    @blowdart:

    Did I mention Apple?

    I was talking about ChromeOS, not Android, and yet since you mention it a lot of Android mobile apps allow people to share information socially, but most of them do not allow collaboration.

    "That's an application level feature, not an OS level one."

    Well there's your first mistake. Every app should have the collaborative ability of an MMORPG. Every app will in the future. Whether that's on Windows or not is still up in the air.
    That's what's drawing people to cloud based applications that already existed on the Desktop.

    You're not convincing me here. In fact you see to be agreeing with what I said, whilst labelling it a mistake. You've pointed out that apps need to have the ability.

    What does ChromeOS, as an OS (which, err, lets face it, it isn't - the OS is linux, Chrome is an application on top of that) does differently? Yes, perhaps the web applications it runs allow some sharing (Google Docs etc.) but those are *applications*

  • User profile image
    beerinbelgi​um

    @blowdart: You shall see my spelling challenged friend.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    , beerinbelgi​um wrote

    In App Collaboration has been the key to nearly every non-search success at Google for the past 5 years.

    Hence the enormous success of Google Wave right? Yet to a mere mortal like myself, the non-search based successes at Google seem to be Gmail - no in app sharing - and Google Docs - which does sharing, but it's less of a draw than simply being a free Office clone.

    I'm just not sure there is anything to back up your claim there. In my experience people still tend to collaborate by sending documents back and forth. Not because of limitations in software, not because it's necessarily the most efficient option but rather because it better fits their mental model of a workflow. 

  • User profile image
    aL_

    i think people just have to chillax..

    the new startscreen is most likely an extension of the start menu and i imagine you can go back to the win7 style and probably even the classic style startmenu if you wish.

    i also think these app tiles are basically extensions of jumplists, except with a deeper callback api. so they will work for any program that supports them, web, .net, native, whatever Smiley

    Having a unified code base is a good thing imo and probably requires alot more work than branching, so i wouldnt call it lazy.. it'll mean consistent behavior and dev experience across more devices, and thats pretty neat

    People are making way to much fuss over this one demo imo.. its a pre alpha product. running apps doesnt even show up in the regular windows taskbar.. its not done Smiley

  • User profile image
    aL_

    , W3bbo wrote

    The scary thing is that you're actually correct.

    30-40 years from now the concept of a "local" computer will be limited to academia and computing eccentrics. "Hardcore gamers" will be defined by the size of their OnLive subscriptions and not the difficulty of putting together their watercooled triple-SLI gaming rig.

    It's bad enough that Valve's games are distributed only through Steam which restricts the ability to make backups (but piracy still exists) it's only a matter of time before games are provided only through OnLive which will eliminate the possibility of piracy entirely.

    Before long, the only users of in-house computing power will be the same Fortune 500 companies that still hang on to their Big Iron main-frames and VAX computers.

    They can take my GTX580 from my cold, dead, fingers.

    local computers will always be faster than remote ones, simply because remote services have to do the same work, but also include the overhead of encoding, sending and decoding the data with low latency..

    yes, in 30 years remote gaming will be infintly better, but game requirements will have scaled as well, probably alot faster.

    I also dont really see the economics in services like onlive. The hardware is still needed, just by them, not by us. true, there is virtualization, but whatever the highend titles are in that time, they will probably require their own box, just like they do now. The cost of that hardware will surely be transfered to the consumer..

    More stuff will probably be done in the cloud, but i dont think local computers are going away in the forseeable future (they might look diffrent though) 

  • User profile image
    Dr Herbie

    @aL_: I'd say it was an extension of the desktop gadgets system -- which is probably why it's based on HTML and JS.

    If I install Win8 on a desktop I want these crappy new 'super gadgets' to be totally invisible.

     

    Herbie

  • User profile image
    aL_

    @Dr Herbie:

    maybe.. allthough that means you can also write them in silverlight as well Smiley

    It might be a combo of some sort, but i think  once you click a tile, the actual application launches. now they could be the equvalent of a pinned ie9 site or a regular app that just runs full screen.

    i just think its unreasonable to assume that they implemented such a radically diffrent application model so early in the process. Its far more likely to me that what we've seen is a kind of reskinning/extension of exsisting features such as app/site pinning, jumplists, the start menu and areo snap

     

     

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