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SaaSy Windows desktop

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  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    And that's what's so frustrating about this Apple-envy approach Microsoft is taking; they ignore the masses in hopes to become the popular kid on the block in the consumer space.

    See, I'm not sure this is Apple-envy. Apps aren't particularly new, and although Apple were the first to really push them, they were there before that on the web too. Basically most web-applications (note: "web-applications", not "web-sites") are "apps". They're a bit richer than a page; not quite as rich as a full application. You visit there quickly to upload your receipts; to check on some stats; to read and compose email.

    This trend was going on for ages before the phone came along. You want to write a tiny app that presents or collects basic data and processes it in the cloud? In 2003 the web was the app platform. When the iPhone came out, it became the second (or at least the second major, consumer) app-platform.

    That's why web-developers found it so easy to go and write iPhone apps. The concept is the same. You take small amounts of data from the user or from sources around the web, process it "in the cloud" (we called it a website back then) and then show the data in a concise way with page-transitions, and voila, you have an app.

    There's also the other type of app. You know. The one where the users have to click the ball and keep it up in the air, and there are these monsters that you have to shoot to get a good score - and those sprites slowly come towards you whilst you collect the gold coins in order to get three stars and a cheevo. You know. Those games. There are tons of those on the iPhone - but they started out life as flash games on the web - or, if you're historically minded, as arcade games in the 1980s.

    Sure, the iPhone has both types of app - but let's not pretend that they invented apps. At best they maybe coined the name app -  but that's not the same as inventing the concept in the first place. Website-y data orientated apps were on the web first, and the iPhone certainly didn't invent low quality games that cost a dollar to play.

    This isn't a case of Windows copying Apple. It's a case of giving Windows what every other platform (other than perhaps Mac/Linux) already has. The web, Android, the iPhone, the Xbox, Windows Phone and hell - even the kindle fire, Blackberry and the Playbook all have apps that are glorified webpages and apps that are glorified arcade games that you pay a dollar to download, play for a week and delete.

    The problem is that if you start with a Windows-centric viewpoint then yes. Apps are new and look a bit like iPhone apps. But if you look at the wider picture you see that Windows was the outlier. With Windows, the only way you could get your app-fix was to fire up your browser and go to the web.

    The desktop had no means to fill this fix. You want a website-ish type of app? Well, you'll have to remember the URL or use the favorites bar in your browser, because otherwise you won't be able to find your app in your browser. And if the website wants to notify you of something you can either go overkill and use RSS or use a plugin to your browser (eugh) to get the notifications.

    Want a game? Well, you can either play $30 for a multi-million dollar release game from hollywood that'll destroy your laptop's GPU and consume 10GB of space, or you can brave the EXEs on the internet and pray to God that it doesn't come bundled with something nasty that'll take your credit card details and send it to some Nigerian Prince in Eastern Europe. Or, of course, you can play a flash game - again, on the web.

    WinRT isn't about "killing the desktop". It's about giving the Windows platform what customers have wanted for ages: glorified websites, and glorified flash games for $2 a time. The Desktop will still reign supreme for your big applications - your teir one games; your high-frequency trading applications; your applications bursting with functionality like Visual Studio and Office - for the foreseeable future.

     

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , dahat wrote

    *snip*

    So... Toyota, GM, Tesla, etc should all give up on building electric cars... because the market has spoken and petrol cars have obviously won out, will never be fully replaced and they shouldn't waste their time or money building things that only a very small niche of users want today?

    I never said that. Not even hinted at it. I said the comparison EvilD made was inaccurate because the investment of money and effort was backwards in his example. I didn't say investment in the future whether it be electric cars or tablets was bad at all.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    See, I'm not sure this is Apple-envy. Apps aren't particularly new, and although Apple were the first to really push them, they were there before that on the web too. Basically most web-applications (note: "web-applications", not "web-sites") are "apps". They're a bit richer than a page; not quite as rich as a full application. You visit there quickly to upload your receipts; to check on some stats; to read and compose email.

    Apple-envy != App-envy in my book. My issue with Microsoft (and interpretation of Apple-envy) is that they want Apple's massive success and they see adopting Apple's arrogant style of "We know better than you" to dictate this curated experience they call "Windows" today as the path to that success. The desktop and desktop technologies also fall victims to that same mentality because those technologies don't provide the shiny they see Apple having success. What's funny is IMO WPF/SL could have provided the shiny but Microsoft's Windows division thought otherwise.

    WinRT isn't about "killing the desktop". It's about giving the Windows platform what customers have wanted for ages: glorified websites, and glorified flash games for $2 a time. The Desktop will still reign supreme for your big applications - your teir one games; your high-frequency trading applications; your applications bursting with functionality like Visual Studio and Office - for the foreseeable future.

     

    That's all fine and good but where's the continued investment in the desktop? Why are desktop features being removed and/or migrated to the Windows 8 Store App environment?

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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    Deactivated User

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  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    My issue with Microsoft (and interpretation of Apple-envy) is that they want Apple's massive success and they see adopting Apple's arrogant style of "We know better than you" to dictate this curated experience they call "Windows" today as the path to that success. The desktop and desktop technologies also fall victims to that same mentality because those technologies don't provide the shiny they see Apple having success. What's funny is IMO WPF/SL could have provided the shiny but Microsoft's Windows division thought otherwise.

    It pains me to say, but I couldn't agree with you more. On all of those points.

    Part of the problem though is that at the end of day, Microsoft can't sit on the moral high ground with it's 10-year support cycle (yes - XP and IE6 are still supported products until the end of the year, despite 4 major releases since and another due before then - Google doesn't support the Chrome you were running last week, never mind one released 10 years ago).

    If the US had kicked Apple for their stranglehold on its AppStore half as much as Microsoft was kicked for its stranglehold on Windows, or if consumers had decided that "no. I'm not going to buy a new iPhone just because this one is a year old and is no longer supported. In fact - that's completely unreasonable" half as much as Microsoft were berated for "ditching XP" even when Windows 7 was first being launched, then I think the world would be a very much better place.

    Instead of Microsoft saying, "holy crap - Apple are destroying us in the market, we need to up our game and drop all of this expensive stuff like support and multi-year cycles and not taking 30% of everyone's profits that are holding us back", Apple would instead be adopting the "Microsoft way". Your iPhone from 2006 would still work for the next five years, you could write an app and give it to your friend for a fiver without Apple taking a cut, and Google maps would never have disappeared from iTunes to make way for an inferior offering from Apple.

    The problem isn't that Microsoft is being a bad citizen. It's that we as a society and as consumers have failed to incentivize them for being good citizens when they were, or punish others for being bad citizens when they were.

    There's only so much "OMG aren't Microsoft crap - not supporting their software that I bought 8 years ago - WOW ANOTHER iPHONE!" that you can take before you just give up and say "Sod it. If the market wants shiny toys instead of stable and consistent platforms, then shiny toys they shall have".

     

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    There's only so much "OMG aren't Microsoft crap - not supporting their software that I bought 8 years ago - WOW ANOTHER iPHONE!" that you can take before you just give up and say "Sod it. If the market wants shiny toys instead of stable and consistent platforms, then shiny toys they shall have".

     

    So? Then Microsoft is USELESS, quite simple as that. Apple isn't even the market leader in phones since quite some time. Not everyone wanted Apple (actually the majority doesn't) and the old Microsoft was a viable competitor. If MS becomes MicroApple, then they become redundant and without ANY purpose.

    Why take a wanna-be, enraged with envy, who is taking a huge dump on its existing customers who were accustomed to a entirely different culture,  when you can get the original?

    What purpose does NuMicrosoft serve? If at least the prices would be different, but no, quite the opposite, all their "devices" ape Apple too. You cannot out-Gucci Gucci, forget it.

    This new Microsoft is without any purpose and reason. Born out of envy, snide, and malice towards the "stupid" public and their own customers. It's doomed to fail. Nothing good can come out of such mindset.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    *snip*

    So? Then Microsoft is USELESS, quite simple as that. Apple isn't even the market leader in phones since quite some time. Not everyone wanted Apple (actually the majority doesn't) and the old Microsoft was a viable competitor. If MS becomes MicroApple, then they become redundant and without ANY purpose.

    To be clear: Microsoft's decision to concentrate more on shiny toys and less about having a stable platform is not just following in Apple's footsteps. Google are just as guilty of that as anyone in the tech industry - hence why they only support today's release of Google Chrome, and don't give you an option to go back to the old Gmail.

    blah blah blah NuMicrosoft blah blah blah

    Sorry. Once you said NuMicrosoft, I stopped reading. Next time, remember that the correct spelling of Microsoft has a dollar sign in it.

  • User profile image
    dahat

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    *snip*
     
    Apples and oranges much? How much investment is tied to calc.exe? Yes, if they are serious about the desktop, they should frigging show it!
     
    Would it kill Ballmer if Microsoft would offer a definitive statement that the billions of dollars investment into desktop software and infrastructure around the world is not for nil? That would surely be a change amidst all the "legacy desktop" talk.

    Again... an absence of a specific statement does not indicate the opposite... and no matter how much trolling you do doesn't change it.

    If you wanted to get really conspiratorial... why expand your paranoia to something like:

    Clearly then Microsoft is preparing to kill IIS, SQL Server, SMB and even Windows Server because almost anything you can do on-premises you can now do in the cloud with Azure... Microsoft has said nothing about the ability to host on-premises web sites or servers in the next decade... clearly they are going to kill it!

    Just a little bit of rational thinking is far better at making predictions than what we are seeing from you here.

  • User profile image
    kettch

    @dahat: You're obviously delusional. Every single one of these predictions about the future of software has come true. Oh, wait... Well, most of them... Yes, some of them have definitely happened...oh, none you say. Mark my words, SOMEDAY it will happen.

  • User profile image
    dahat

    @kettch:

    Ford? There's an infinite number of monkeys outside who want to talk to us about this script for 'Hamlet' they've worked out

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , dahat wrote

    *snip*

    Again... an absence of a specific statement does not indicate the opposite... and no matter how much trolling you do doesn't change it.

    If you wanted to get really conspiratorial... why expand your paranoia to something like:

    *snip*

    Just a little bit of rational thinking is far better at making predictions than what we are seeing from you here.

    So do you just ignore Microsoft actions and assume because Microsoft isn't making statements about them that everything is just rainbows and sunshine? It's pretty clear they've ceased priniciple development of WPF/SL. If I take your line of reasoning I'd still be recommending those technologies be used for our customer's projects. If Microsoft isn't going to continue to invest in something then I'm not going to recommend it to customers. 

    It seems to me your version of rational thinking amounts to closing one eye and plugging one ear. No news isn't necessarily good news.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    dahat

    @DeathBy​VisualStudio: Are you the sort who walks up to a McDonalds at 3am on Christmas Day... sees that the lights are off and no one there, pulls on the door then starts screaming "Oh my god! McDonalds is failing! McDonalds is obviously getting out of the food business as they are not serving me exactly what, how and when I want! The fact that this store is closed proves it!"... never mind the fact it's 3am... and on a holiday they will likely be closed during.

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    So do you just ignore Microsoft actions and assume because Microsoft isn't making statements about them that everything is just rainbows and sunshine?

    I seem to be getting hoarse repeating myself as you clearly aren't listening. I have seen no actions that are a definite sign that the desktop is dead... NONE.

    You also forget the fact that this company (like most) tend not to announce every manner of detail about the future months or years in advance... or did I miss the Microsoft branded truck with the megaphone driving around yelling "Ding dong the desktop is dead!"? I've seen many strange and/or interesting sights in Redmond (the Warthog, SteveB, third party companies flying aircraft trailing banners over campus to try to convince us to buy this or that, life size statues of gaming characters (and much more))... but still not that.

    It's pretty clear they've ceased priniciple development of WPF/SL.

    Not being on the WPF or SL team...  I wouldn't be able to comment.

    If I take your line of reasoning I'd still be recommending those technologies be used for our customer's projects. If Microsoft isn't going to continue to invest in something then I'm not going to recommend it to customers.

    Is the Win32 API dead? It occurs to me that we've not heard much news out of that area. OMG! Win32 programming is dead!!! Quick! Tell the Office and Visual Studio teams to stop whatever they are doing as it is obviously pointless!

    It seems to me your version of rational thinking amounts to closing one eye and plugging one ear.

    One who rejects rational thinking might come to that conclusion... yes. Again I remind you of developers. It would be a strange world of Microsoft were to remove the desktop from Windows and suddenly prevent developers from developing for and on their platform.

    No news isn't necessarily good news.

    Correct... but no news is also by definition 'no news'... and making crap up is even less news.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , dahat wrote

    You also forget the fact that this company (like most) tend not to announce every manner of detail about the future months or years in advance... or did I miss the Microsoft branded truck with the megaphone driving around yelling "Ding dong the desktop is dead!"? I've seen many strange and/or interesting sights in Redmond (the Warthog, SteveB, third party companies flying aircraft trailing banners over campus to try to convince us to buy this or that, life size statues of gaming characters (and much more))... but still not that.

    And the SQL server team handing out free bacon. Redmond is strange.

  • User profile image
    MasterPi

    DBVS likes apple pie without the crust. I know this because he hasn't come out and said otherwise.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , dahat wrote

    *snip*

    Again... an absence of a specific statement does not indicate the opposite... and no matter how much trolling you do doesn't change it.

    If you wanted to get really conspiratorial... why expand your paranoia to something like:

    Clearly then Microsoft is preparing to kill IIS, SQL Server, SMB and even Windows Server because almost anything you can do on-premises you can now do in the cloud with Azure... Microsoft has said nothing about the ability to host on-premises web sites or servers in the next decade... clearly they are going to kill it!

    Entirely in the realm of possibility. Especially if we are talking about the time-frame of the next decade.

    The regular Small Business Server was killed after Office 365 was set-up. Microsoft gave a huge middle-finger to all the protests and objections.

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    To be clear: Microsoft's decision to concentrate more on shiny toys and less about having a stable platform is not just following in Apple's footsteps. Google are just as guilty of that as anyone in the tech industry - hence why they only support today's release of Google Chrome, and don't give you an option to go back to the old Gmail.

    Anyone in the industry? I don't see IBM or Oracle going this path. Microsoft is as much related to these companies as to Apple and Google. It was Microsoft's decision to play in the enterprise and consumer worlds, so they can't just go all-hipster with their core products and expect everyone will swallow their envy-run.

    Oh and Google is more akin to the old Microsoft than to Apple. Android has all the ingredients that made Windows successful: It's open where it counts, there are no forced appstores and the users are basically free to do with it what they want and install what they want. It's extremely feature rich. It has a attracted a huge enthusiast scene around it, with lots of mods, styles and themes available for it. And it is the market leader.  

    Compare that to Windows Phone: Locked down, no easy sideloading, forced store, forced 30% cut for developers, no way to modify the UI, still lacking the basic features its predecessor had (VPN, Outlook sync). In short: A product born out of envy for Apple. And it's having the marketshare it deserves as a result. I am sure,  if Microsoft didn't trash Windows Mobile, but facelifted it instead, it would have been more successful than this knock-off. The GUI came from Zune, all the rest is Apple-envy.

    Outlook sync is probably withheld on purpose to encourage cloud offerings. Google's Android plays better with Microsoft products than Windows Phone. The Android flagship, Galaxy S4, has removable batteries and an SD-slot. The Windows Phone flagship, Lumia 920, of course doesn't. After all, the iPhone is without these too. The world would probably implode if NuMicrosoft wouldn't ape every single Apple-restriction.

    MS trying to out-Apple Apple is like Ford seriously trying to out-Lamborghini Lamborghini. It's classic cargo cult strategy; they have no idea why things work as they do and are performing bizarre rituals that superficially resemble the work of others, while waiting for the promised results that will never materialize.

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    Sorry. Once you said NuMicrosoft, I stopped reading. Next time, remember that the correct spelling of Microsoft has a dollar sign in it.

    NuMicrosoft doesn't deserve the dollar sign. There is nothing "$" about a business that has succumbed to mindless envy as its primary motivator, with products showing exactly that.

  • User profile image
    dahat

    , wastingtime​withforums wrote

    *snip*

    Entirely in the realm of possibility. Especially if we are talking about the time-frame of the next decade.

    Really? Then you'll obviously believe anything... lets try another wild and made up claim (much like virtually every word you've said here):

    I heard... that the upcoming Xbox announcement is just about a new 'XDrone' feature in the Xbox that enables it to target inferior gaming consoles as well as terrorists for missile attacks. I think it's irresponsible that Microsoft and Rand Paul haven't come out and addressed the rumors I just started and indicated whether or not this feature can be disabled or not... because I don't want to have to deal with coming home to find the remains of my wife's Nintendo WII in a smoking crater.

    The regular Small Business Server was killed after Office 365 was set-up. Microsoft gave a huge middle-finger to all the protests and objections.

    It's so much fun hearing you spout lies about things you obviously know little about.

    I'll tell you a little secret... I was on the HSBS (Home and Small Business Server) team for a bit.

    What exactly do you call 'regular Small Business Server'? If you mean the version that came with Exchange & SQL server in the box... those features were removed prior to Office 365 being setup... in fact, the announcement you were hyper-ventilating about was more of a re-branding.

    Have you tried Windows Server 2012 Essentials? I have... it's just like Windows Small Business Server 2011 (which I helped build)... only it runs on Server 2012 and has some additional features (including Office 365) *gasp*!

    Wait... they only really renamed the product?

    Of course... none of this is new... you've also been screaming about how WPF is dead... and yet it was obviously updated in the 4.5 .NET framework (as well as Windows 8/2012)... I wonder what other 'facts' you are making up?

  • User profile image
    wastingtime​withforums

    , dahat wrote

     

    It's so much fun hearing you spout lies about things you obviously know little about.

    I'll tell you a little secret... I was on the HSBS (Home and Small Business Server) team for a bit.

    What exactly do you call 'regular Small Business Server'? If you mean the version that came with Exchange & SQL server in the box... those features were removed prior to Office 365 being setup... in fact, the announcement you were hyper-ventilating about was more of a re-branding.

    I mean the one with Exchange in the box.

    Small Business Server 2011, the last regular release, was RTMed in December 2010 (that means before Office 365)

    http://blogs.technet.com/b/yungchou/archive/2010/12/13/windows-small-business-server-sbs-2011-rtm.aspx

    Office 365 was launched in June 2011:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Office_365

    Microsoft announced the discontinuation of the regular SBS version in July 2012:

    http://blogs.technet.com/b/sbs/archive/2012/07/05/windows-small-business-server-essentials-becomes-windows-server-2012-essentials.aspx

    One year after Office 365 was launched. So, yes, I stand by it: The regular Small Business Server was killed after Office 365 was set-up.

    "those features were removed prior to Office 365 being setup"

    Obviously not. SBS 2011 was full-featured and was released just six months before the Office 365 launch.

     

    , dahat wrote

    Have you tried Windows Server 2012 Essentials? I have... it's just like Windows Small Business Server 2011 (which I helped build)... only it runs on Server 2012 and has some additional features (including Office 365) *gasp*!

    No, it's not "just like" Small Business Server 2011, since it lacks on-premise Exchange.

     

     

    , dahat wrote

    Wait... they only really renamed the product?

    Transforming an on-premise server to a cloud solution is called renaming nowadays? And you're calling me the troll?!

    , dahat wrote

    Of course... none of this is new... you've also been screaming about how WPF is dead...

    It's definitely on life-support.

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/

    Click on "Windows" there, you get this:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/default.aspx

    Hm, there is a "Desktop" item, there, you click on it and..

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/desktop/

    Stll no WPF! But: "Explore the docs about desktop app development ...Check out the Windows Development Reference for in-depth technical information about how to build desktop apps...." you click on it and.. Tada!:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/windows/desktop/hh447209

    That's the Win32 documentation! So, the prefered way to write desktop applications is Win32 apparently. According to MSDN at least.

    I am not saying WPF is EOL, I am sure WPF applications will continue to run for a long time to come.. but Microsoft's attention level to it is barley above their attention to WinForms.

    Let's see how the MSDN frontpage looked like in 2010 (before the "re-imagined" virus):

    http://tinyurl.com/d4xvoqt

    We click on "Desktop", this leads to:

    "Developing desktop applications on Windows

    Now that you know what desktop development is, watch this next video to get an overview of the Microsoft tools and technologies for desktop development, and learn about the three programming models: WPF (Windows Presentation Foundation), Silverlight, and C++ (native)."

     

    BOOM. WPF mentioned right on the frontpage of the Windows MSDN page.

    How about the MSDN quicklinks: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.aspx Not a trace.. (funny that even XNA is mentioned, yet no WPF)

    So, WPF got some new features? So did WinForms in 2007.

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