Coffeehouse Thread

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  • User profile image
    bitdisaster

    There are a lot of rumuors about Windows running everywhere and looks like it comes true. We know Windows 8 is for PC/Tablet and it would be a surpise if its runing on the next Surface.

    WP8 is going NT kernel

    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/could-and-should-microsoft-change-the-heart-of-windows-phone/11164

    http://hal2020.com/2011/11/04/windows-phone-8-and-windows-8-cousins-or-siblings/

    XBox is the next

    http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/718132/next-gen-xbox-rumors-points-towards-windows-9-and-arm-functionality-codename-loop/

    Here my 2 cents on this topic in the conext of WPF/e (aka Silverlight). http://janhannemann.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/the-shift-from-wpfe-to-windowse/

     

     

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    Surprise. Surprise. Like I've been saying all along. Those poor WP7 devs are going to be assimlated into the WinRT borg. I'm sure they'll tell them "and your skills will all transfer"...

    Nothing like writing software on a dead -- sorry I ment "mature" -- technology.

    BTW, Didn't Microsoft go down this "Windows Everywhere" route before? That's why WinCE was born; Windows was too bloated to run on devices. You can quad core an ARM all day long and you still won't have an x86.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    felix9

    Some other people doesn't think so (or so fast) ......

    http://msnerd.tumblr.com/post/12233928364/clarity

  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    The last few years have shown that almost everyone other then MS chose some POSIX kernel.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    I'm not sure where people get the idea that NT is such a heavyweight kernel that it'd be impossible to use it on a phone, it was originally written for a 386 with 4MB of RAM after all. Sure system requirements for Windows as a whole have gone up since then, but that's probably more about userland than the kernel itself.

    And as the power of even simple computing devices rises, diverting increasing resources to keeping WinCE going doesn't make a whole lot of sense. This sort of thing has been on the cards ever since the MinWin split and the ongoing efforts to modularise the remainder of Windows. If that effort really pays off then the big justification for WinCE, the ability to custom build modular versions, starts to fade.

  • User profile image
    TomboRombo

    I think this could be doable now with the capability in processors for phones. 

    DeathByVisualStudio:  I normally agree with you but I think you are a little negative on this one. I dont think the WP7 developers will lose alot on this one as far as transferrring skillset.  

    I  am glad they are not going backwards into some ancient POSIX based kernel.

     

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    A minor nit, but the NT kernel implements POSIX.1 so it's not completely accurate to dismiss it as a non-POSIX based kernel. Of course, this statement is not entirely accurate either, as the topic is rather nuanced, and it sounds like Windows 8 may be putting an end to this subsystem.

    http://brianreiter.org/2011/09/15/sua-deprecated-in-windows-8/

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    @DeathByVisualStudio: I know you have a strong desire to be negative, either in general or at least with regards to Microsoft, but could you at least RTFA before making inane comments?

    "Switching to the NT kernel should have no impact on existing WP7 applications as those apps have no direct access to Windows CE.  This really should be a very seamless move for both applications and end-users.  The ODMs (original design manufacturers) and carriers are really the only ones who have significant work to do since drivers or any other native mode software they wrote will need to be ported or rewritten. But things written with Silverlight/.NET/XNA should just work.  I guess there might be a caveat for apps that use some esoteric feature that Microsoft decides to deprecate, but since most such features would only have been exposed in Mango I doubt Microsoft would have exposed them at all if they didn't plan on carrying them over to WP8."

    Near term, WP7 development is not likely to change. Even long term, the switch from WPF or Silverlight to WinRT is on par with the switch from WPF to Silverlight to Silverlight/WP7. If you can't make the transition, you shouldn't consider yourself a developer.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , wkempf wrote

    @DeathByVisualStudio: I know you have a strong desire to be negative, either in general or at least with regards to Microsoft, but could you at least RTFA before making inane comments?

    "Switching to the NT kernel should have no impact on existing WP7 applications as those apps have no direct access to Windows CE.  This really should be a very seamless move for both applications and end-users.  The ODMs (original design manufacturers) and carriers are really the only ones who have significant work to do since drivers or any other native mode software they wrote will need to be ported or rewritten. But things written with Silverlight/.NET/XNA should just work.  I guess there might be a caveat for apps that use some esoteric feature that Microsoft decides to deprecate, but since most such features would only have been exposed in Mango I doubt Microsoft would have exposed them at all if they didn't plan on carrying them over to WP8."

    Near term, WP7 development is not likely to change. Even long term, the switch from WPF or Silverlight to WinRT is on par with the switch from WPF to Silverlight to Silverlight/WP7. If you can't make the transition, you shouldn't consider yourself a developer.

    You got me! I'm scared of transitions. So much so I transitioned right over to Android. I'm glad such justifications makes you feel so full of rainbows and sunshine. That's sure a nice way of burrying Microsoft's bad decisions. You could have been more direct and said something like: "Well if you don't like it well then you suck!"

    I guess you didn't learn much from Build either. Microsoft invested heavily in a new phone OS-like runtime called WinRT. (If you've very had any exposure to Android then, UI aside, you'll know how much a rip-off of Android it is). SL/WP7 is now "legacy" just like on the desktop. Do you really think they'll have two phone interfaces? Who's going to be driving the screen?  SL/WP7? WinRT? I'll die laughing if the SL/WP7 apps are run from the "desktop".

    Maybe I'm the only developer on the plant who cares about how their customers' dollars are spent shifting from one cross-platform technology to another based largely in part to politics within Microsoft. Who pays for learning WinRT/Metro? Oh that's right the customer (or my family if I'm feeling particularly generous).

    And for you MinWin/Modular Windows/Moore's Law-will-save-us guys (or folks that go by the name of Andy) you can play the shell game all you want between shrinking Windows footprint by excluding modules and the uberness of having the "full" OS/APIs/Windows whatever on all devices. You can't have both.

    If Microsoft had a track record of producing fast & fluid apps, OS's, developer tools, or toasters you might have a case but we all know that just isn't the facts. Microsoft boasts of millions of W7 boxes that are instant W8 customers because the hardware requirements and performance between the OS's are the same. What they fail to mention is that "enhancements" to the OS will require more horsepower to to perform the same task. Do you really think opening a document via search in W8 will be faster than selecting it from a jump list or MRU off a pinned app in the start menu?

    Don't get me wrong I like the advancements of W8 and think it has a future but Microsoft is cutting off their nose to spite their face. Like our goverment: too many absolutes and not enough comprimise all provided to you on a heaping bed of leverage.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    Not sure what this means to me, to devs, to users, and to many people. I have always thought WinPh7 is running on some kind of NT Kernel and Win8 is also running on some kind of NT Kernel, and same with Xbox360 some kind of NT Kernel. It is impossible to disagree because even if it wasn't running on a NT Kernel, it is better to use the same/modified NT Kernel to shorten dev cost anyway. And after that, I still don't know what kind of impact will have on devs and users.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    wkempf

    @DeathByVisualStudio: You don't like Microsoft, you don't like the development environment, you don't like Visual Studio, and you're switching to Android development. Remind me again why we have to put up with your rants here, then?

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @wkempf:

    I do it just for you. I know how much you enjoy my rants and what you learn from them. Smiley

    While I wish there was an Android story on the desktop or that Apple would take more ground away from Microsoft the sad truth is they still own the desktop (you know the thing they keep leveraging to foist their bad descisions upon us). My customers run Windows and use SQL Server and want to integrate with Office so until that demand changes and we've ported our code to Java I'm stuck with Microsoft. I used to be a big Microsoft proponent believe it or not and actually hold on to a thread of hope that they'll listen and make some changes for the better.

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    AndyC

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    *snip*

     Do you really think opening a document via search in W8 will be faster than selecting it from a jump list or MRU off a pinned app in the start menu?

    Opening a document via search in W7 is no slower than selecting it from a jump list or MRU off a pinned app in the start menu. So I see no compelling reason for it to be faster or slower in W8 by any percievable difference.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    @AndyC:

    You don't see because drinking the koolaid causes blindness.

    Search on W7 or W8 is slower than selecting a file from a jump list or MRU list unless you're running on SSD or some uber box. It takes longer to perform; provides a lot of useless choices you have to wade through, etc. Being a keyboard guy I tried going all search box with W7 but it was an under performer. Now that the start screen is replacing the start menu on the desktop say goodbye to those nice MRU list you used to have on the start menu for pinned apps.

     

    If we all believed in unicorns and fairies the world would be a better place.
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  • User profile image
    fanbaby

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    @wkempf:

    I do it just for you. I know how much you enjoy my rants and what you learn from them. Smiley

     

    That made me laugh.

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    , DeathBy​VisualStudio wrote

    @AndyC:

     Now that the start screen is replacing the start menu on the desktop say goodbye to those nice MRU list you used to have on the start menu for pinned apps. 

    Yeah, never actually used any of them to open a document myself. If I know it's going to be on an MRU list I just open the app and use whatever is there, it's usually much easier. Especially with things like the backstage view in Office apps. Can't say I'll miss them, especially not the Start menu ones which actually require you to sit there with the mouse hovering over the app for aeons.

  • User profile image
    wkempf

    , fanbaby wrote

    *snip*

     

    That made me laugh.

    Me too. But I'm betting for a different reason.

  • User profile image
    DeathBy​VisualStudio

    , AndyC wrote

    *snip*

    Yeah, never actually used any of them to open a document myself. If I know it's going to be on an MRU list I just open the app and use whatever is there, it's usually much easier. Especially with things like the backstage view in Office apps. Can't say I'll miss them, especially not the Start menu ones which actually require you to sit there with the mouse hovering over the app for aeons.

    "it's usually much easier" - that's your opinion.

    Hey smart guy; the mouse does have a left button. Try clicking on the MRU arrow rather than sitting there like a tool waiting for the menu to pop up as you hover. Nice how you add that little BS in there to make it look like you have a point. Fail again Andy.

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