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has Anders commented on WinRT?

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  • User profile image
    felix9

    for WinRT and .NET discussions, maybe this episode of Hanselminutes is a good one

    http://www.hanselminutes.com/329/understanding-winrt-and-windows-8-for-net-programmers

    Scott's confused about what 'WinRT' is. Is it a new .NET? A new runtime? Is .NET dead? He's totally confused so he talks to Immo Landwerth who sets him straight with complete context from Win32 to COM to .NET and beyond.

    for .NET vs. C++ discussions, you may want to watch this Java vs. C++ (vs Javascript) talk by Cameron Purdy

    http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Keynote-Lessons-Java-CPlusPlus-History-Cloud

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    , DeadX07 wrote

    Managed code will never be as fast as close to the metal native. Managed code lives because of abstraction concepts, and abstraction equals cost.

    ok so managed can only be 98% - and 99% of the time that last 2% is not even a blip on the radar!

    honestly i think that for *most* apps managed is plenty fast unless the app is poorly written or is extreemly crtitical - like some core OS code.

    most of the time when folks think it's slow etc... it's from bad code or not understanding how it really works.

  • User profile image
    figuerres

    , Charles wrote

    *snip*

    De-emphasis? What are you talking about? .NET is a first class citizen in Windows 8.... I don't understand how this thinking has emerged. For one thing, it's wrong. For another, it's wrong....

    WinRT supports .NET, HTML5 and C/C++. This has been the case since the modern Windows programming model was announced at BUILD 2011.

    So, your base assumption is incorrect, thus this post is irrelevant. That said, Anders works on the C# and VB languages, both of which can be used to build modern Windows 8 style apps. You can also build shared WinRT components in C# or VB that can be used from JavaScript and C++.

    Where's this confusion stemming from? Is it because we (I, especially) have been promoting C++? I've already addressed that aspect several times.... C++ evangelism went mostly dark during the .NET Everywhere years and my goal has been to push native into the forefront (where it belongs), bringing how and when we talk about C++ up to par with .NET content on Channel 9.

    WinRT doesn't pick favorites... If you're a .NET developer, then you're all set. If you're an HTML5 developer, then you're all set. If you're a C/C++ programmer, then you're all set. This can't be made more clear. 

    C

     

    I have not seen anything from Mr. Anders in ages here on C9  and the coverage on win 8 has been focused more often on the "shiny new bits" that most of the time say nothing about .Net

    that is why many of us feel like .net has been "demoted" and Anders has "gone dark"  heck i wonder if he is leaving or retiering ?

    possibly a job somewhere else ?

     

  • User profile image
    felix9

    Oh, if you really want to hear from Anders himself then here it is, about 30 ~ 35min

    http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Ch9Live/Channel-9-Live-at-BUILD/C9L201

  • User profile image
    AndyC

    , DCMonkey wrote

    *snip*

    Don't you still have to wrap your Win32 API in WinRT objects before you can take advantage of Projection?

    True, but the biggest problem .NET developers have faced is not performance, it's that there is a massive delay between new technologies becoming available in Windows and suitable quality Managed Wrappers being in place (the Ribbon being a classic example, but there are plenty of others). And developing your own wrappers is both time consuming and potentially problematic if "official" libraries come out in future that wrap things differently. C++ developers have suffered similarly, but it's considerably easier to just call C style APIs there.

    WinRT brings a standard method for exposing new APIs in Windows that can easily be consumed from whichever platform suits the developer. Long term this has the option of makingn .NET (and potentially JS) much more of a first-class development platform than it has ever been before.

  • User profile image
    magicalclick

    Is there some kind of ZBuffer for the presentation layer in WinRT? The performance issue I have with WPF is more to do that simple fact that, there is only one Dispatcher thread for the main GUI, and there is no ZBuffer at all. It is as if you are trying to draw everything without ZBuffer on single thread, that's terrible. I want to draw in the background in the ZBuffer, using different thread, and swap it periodically or when I made several changes.

    I am not talking about 2D drawing, I am talking about WPF basic controls.

    I hope there is something about that. And also the processing of collapsed elements. I think it is faster to have elements collapsed and re-enable instead of remove them and add them when I want to modify the list. But, my previous experience, those collapsed elements still cost quite a lot of calculations. 

    A lot of performance issues are with presentation layer instead of raw calculation speed.

    Leaving WM on 5/2018 if no apps, no dedicated billboards where I drive, no Store name.
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  • User profile image
    TexasToast

    @felix9:

    for .NET vs. C++ discussions, you may want to watch this Java vs. C++ (vs Javascript) talk by Cameron Purdy

    http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Keynote-Lessons-Java-CPlusPlus-History-Cloud

     

    Felix9,  thanks for the link.  I have not seen that before but it nicely summarizes plus and minuses of both. 

    I just dont agree with the last slide.   He basically says Rich Client is the future.  To me,  that has always been here it is just becoming popular.   That is what Silverlight was already doing .  Smart client with webservices.

  • User profile image
    TexasToast

    @Charles:

    Now, with respect to the comment about C++ developers preferring C#, well, that's simply not true. You use the right tool for the job at hand. Period.

    Well I will just disagree the first sentence and agree with the second.   I use both everyday and I tend to enjoy the C# environment more.  If C# was made into a compiled language without .NET (no GC etc) I would use it for everything.

     

  • User profile image
    Charles

    @figuerres: We'll get him on C9 again... He's been rather busy (C# 5.0, Roslyn, etc...).

    C

  • User profile image
    Charles

    @felix9: Well, that's more the result of speculation than reality.

    , felix9 wrote

    *snip*

    I think this thinking emerged from mid-2011, with Bob Muglia's 'stragegy has shifted and Silverlight (also WPF) is dead' and Steve Sinofsky's 'HTML5 and Javascript is the way to develop on Windows 8' messages,  the 'C++ Renaissance' also contributes in someway.

    Nobody has said that HTML5 is "preferred"... It's the newest way to build Windows apps, yes, - and it's frankly quite amazing that you can build powerful modern style client applications in HTML5 on Windows 8 - outside of a browser... Pretty awesome, if you ask me. That said, it's one of three main ways to get to the job done. It's time to get past the "what about .NET?" stuff and accept that in reality .NET is as first class as every other programming model that targets modern style apps on Windows 8.

    Can we move along?

    C

  • User profile image
    Charles

    , felix9 wrote

    for WinRT and .NET discussions, maybe this episode of Hanselminutes is a good one

    http://www.hanselminutes.com/329/understanding-winrt-and-windows-8-for-net-programmers

    *snip*

    for .NET vs. C++ discussions, you may want to watch this Java vs. C++ (vs Javascript) talk by Cameron Purdy

    http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Keynote-Lessons-Java-CPlusPlus-History-Cloud



    I'd encourage .NET developers to watch this: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/BUILD/BUILD2011/TOOL-930C

    Apparently, Hanselman needs to, too Smiley (just kidding, Scott!)

    C

  • User profile image
    exoteric

    , Charles wrote

    @felix9: Well, that's more the result of speculation than reality.

    *snip*

    Nobody has said that HTML5 is "preferred"... 

    <snip>

    Can we move along?

    C

    Two comments:

    First of all, I also don't get why people, especially developers, with common sense could be confused about the status of .NET. In particular it appears that .NET will have more easy access to OS components in Windows 8. Maybe it's because some people still think back to the role of "managed code" in the Longhorn days.

    That said, I seem to remember a comment when Windows 8 was first demoed publicly by Sinofsky and, Julie Larsen, where there was a remark that made it seem like HTML 5 development had suddenly been raised to a preferred method of developing apps for Windows 8. Of course that's nonsense and anyone with common sense should be able to deduce what was meant. It does show how easily confused people get about future directions.

    I'm sure Felix can track down the comment - although it's just for historical curioisity at this point.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , TexasToast wrote

    If C# was made into a compiled language without .NET (no GC etc) I would use it for everything.

    The GC isn't just an implementation detail of .NET. It's a critical design feature. Without it, you'd have to explicitly new and delete every object, introducing the sudden possibility of double-free vulnerabilities and memory leaks, i.e. removing any semblance of memory safety across the entire language, undoing what is arguably C#'s biggest achievement.

  • User profile image
    wsdotnet

    @evildictaitor: I don't think compiling c# to native would take away the some of the parts of the GC. I have been using mono touch for some time and as I understand it mono compiles the c# down to native code IOS code before it gets loaded on the device. So i think it would be possible to do this.

  • User profile image
    evildictait​or

    , wsdotnet wrote

    @evildictaitor: I don't think compiling c# to native would take away the some of the parts of the GC. I have been using mono touch for some time and as I understand it mono compiles the c# down to native code IOS code before it gets loaded on the device. So i think it would be possible to do this.

    It is of course perfectly possible to compile C# to machine code and run it without a JIT. It is not possible to run it without a GC.

  • User profile image
    felix9

    , evildictait​or wrote

    *snip*

    It is of course perfectly possible to compile C# to machine code and run it without a JIT. It is not possible to run it without a GC.

    Nitpicking, Bartok does have a option "nullgc" which means no collector Smiley
    The only problem is your memory wont be reclaimed, but if you dont allocate much its OK I think. Big Smile

  • User profile image
    LiquidBoy

    I frankly love that XAML/C#/Cx ,  HTML/CSS/JS and Dx/C++/Cx  are there for us to build first class apps... 

     

    BUT i find it very weird that MS are using HTML for the MAJORITY of the Bing/Live/Xbox apps (looking at 15+ MS made apps all of which are HTML and a very very small fraction is XAML/Dx) ... it's like theres an internal memo to build everything in HTML,

    i seriously don't know why at least the Video/Music apps wernt XAML/Dx, to me that would sound like the perfect technologies to showcase a video/music app ...

    currently the Music/Video apps are unimpressive apps that are frankly embarassing and MS could do so much better (ala XBOX dashboard) ...

  • User profile image
    felix9

    , exoteric wrote

    That said, I seem to remember a comment when Windows 8 was first demoed publicly by Sinofsky and, Julie Larsen, where there was a remark that made it seem like HTML 5 development had suddenly been raised to a preferred method of developing apps for Windows 8. Of course that's nonsense and anyone with common sense should be able to deduce what was meant. It does show how easily confused people get about future directions.

    I'm sure Felix can track down the comment - although it's just for historical curioisity at this point.

    Hmm... no, believe it or not, it didnt sounds like the HTML5 is the 'preferred' way, instead, it sounded like HTML5 is the 'only' way for the new UI ! everything else is still supported but just for the old UI !

    https://allthingsd.com/20110601/up-next-at-d9-microsoft-windows-president-steven-sinofsky-live-at-d9/
    https://allthingsd.com/20110620/windows-for-the-app-age-microsofts-steven-sinofskys-full-d9-interview-video/
    https://allthingsd.com/20110601/exclusive-making-sense-of-what-we-just-learned-about-windows-8/
    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/features/2011/jun11/06-01corpnews.aspx

    Discussions here:
    http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/What-platforms-should-I-invest-my-time-in
    http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/On-the-plus-side
    http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/OK-Microsoft-has-gone-crazy

    People knew it can't be true, but its still 'poor developer communications and PR'
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/06/windows_tablets_without_silverlight_dot_net/

    To be fair, Charles clarified this the next day on Channel9 https://channel9.msdn.com/posts/A-quick-look-at-Windows-8#c634425734130000000
    but this was almost the ONLY outspoken MS employee for three months, in a comment of a post ! Peter Brown may be another one, everyone else was saying "None of us at Microsoft can say anything until //build/ in September." Ouch.

    Even MaryJo Foley wanted to stop the FUD
    http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsoft-needs-to-tell-windows-8-developers-now-about-jupiter-and-silverlight/9608

    But people still had this impression in August.
    http://channel9.msdn.com/Forums/Coffeehouse/Steven-Sinofsky-addressed-developer-frustration-and-confusing-about-HTML5-vs-Silverlight-strategy/6bd0147f989f4052bb9c9f4200204d04
    http://blogs.gartner.com/david_m_smith/2011/08/17/microsoft-buldinging-suspense-but-letting-confusion-fester/

    All in all, this ridiculous thinking might be a result of 'speculation', but stupid PR from Microsoft definetively set it off and helped a lot to spread it.

    Scott Hanselman was obviously joking in that podcast I mentioned, but the joke itself reflects the situation of reality, isn't it ?

    OK. That's all for today's history lessons, lets move along. Tongue Out

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